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China VDebate- TheTrashDebater(Aff) v. Nonegfiat(Neg)


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#1 TheTrashDebater

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 06:52 AM

Attached File  The best TCM Aff.docx   63.29KB   64 downloadsThe word count is 2,528, i now stand open to CX

 

Edit: Judges are welcome, just post your paradigm if you don't mind!


Edited by TheTrashDebater, 15 June 2017 - 06:59 AM.

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"Basically, my partner is Ryan Snow, not Paul Ryan."

 


#2 Nonegfiat

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 07:07 AM

CX

 

What specific action does the aff mandate?

 

What does the aff do to solve China threat reps?

 

What does the aff do to reduce the use of antibiotics in the US?

 

Liu and Gong say: "when antibiotics do not work and their prolonged use causes side effects, Chinese herbal medicine can be a very useful option." Does that mean that under the plan, TCM would just be an alternative option to antibiotics?

 

What is "indigenous knowledge", in the context of your Anaya evidence?

 

What's wrong with Western health practices?

 

If I prove that Western health practices have more life-saving potential than TCM, why vote aff?

 

The tag of your OSTP evidence says that the plan "increases medical technology for both". You just read an entire advantage about how the spread of Western medical technology supplants TCM and thus suppresses indigenous culture. Can you explain what's going on here?


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DOUBLE BIND- Either the harms of the aff are true and they can't solve until they control the levers of power OR the harms are constructed and you reject them for alarmism


#3 TheTrashDebater

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 07:21 AM

CX

What specific action does the aff mandate?
We mandate that the OSTP increase their diplomatic engagement with the PRC by creating a bilateral program promoting traditional medicine alternaives

What does the aff do to solve China threat reps?
We help change the way an essential part of chinese culture is represented, then that'll eventually spill over into other representations of China.

What does the aff do to reduce the use of antibiotics in the US?
We don't reduce antibiotics, we present a viable way to solve for superbugs

Liu and Gong say: "when antibiotics do not work and their prolonged use causes side effects, Chinese herbal medicine can be a very useful option." Does that mean that under the plan, TCM would just be an alternative option to antibiotics?
Under the plan we promote the use of TCM, which like I said to the previous question will solve for the advantages.

What is "indigenous knowledge", in the context of your Anaya evidence?
Any indigenous knowledge really, but we are specifying to China in this case.

What's wrong with Western health practices?
The overuse of antibiotics have lead to the creation and promotion of superbugs, while western medicine has some advantages TCM solves for the biggest medical threat we have seen in modern times.

If I prove that Western health practices have more life-saving potential than TCM, why vote aff?
Refer to the China depictions and indigenous knowledge advantages.

The tag of your OSTP evidence says that the plan "increases medical technology for both". You just read an entire advantage about how the spread of Western medical technology supplants TCM and thus suppresses indigenous culture. Can you explain what's going on here?
We aren't necessarily referring to western medicine, the card says any medical cooperation between the two countries will benefit both of them equally. It's basically an admission the plan is QPQ.


Edited by TheTrashDebater, 15 June 2017 - 07:30 AM.

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"Basically, my partner is Ryan Snow, not Paul Ryan."

 


#4 Nonegfiat

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 07:34 AM

 

CX

 

 

We mandate that the OSTP increase their diplomatic engagement with the PRC by creating a bilateral program promoting traditional medicine alternaives

Really? It doesn't say that in your plan text.

 

We help change the way an essential part of chinese culture is represented, then that'll eventually spill over into other representations of China. 

Why will it spill over?  

 

EDIT: and why do you necessarily change the way it's represented?

 

We don't reduce antibiotics, we present a viable way to solve for superbugs

So in the world of the aff, people still use antibiotics just as much as an the squo? Then how do you solve the advantage?

 

 

Refer to the China depictions and indigenous knowledge advantages.

So you're saying we should weigh a vague affirmation of Chinese culture over millions of lives? Why?

 

The tag of your OSTP evidence says that the plan "increases medical technology for both". You just read an entire advantage about how the spread of Western medical technology supplants TCM and thus suppresses indigenous culture. Can you explain what's going on here?

Can I get an answer to this question?

 

 


Edited by Nonegfiat, 15 June 2017 - 07:35 AM.

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DOUBLE BIND- Either the harms of the aff are true and they can't solve until they control the levers of power OR the harms are constructed and you reject them for alarmism


#5 TheTrashDebater

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 08:11 AM

CX
 
 
We mandate that the OSTP increase their diplomatic engagement with the PRC by creating a bilateral program promoting traditional medicine alternaives
Really? It doesn't say that in your plan text.
The latter is a possibility of what could be a viable action but for now we only enforcs OSTP diplomatic engagement, sorry for any confusion.

We help change the way an essential part of chinese culture is represented, then that'll eventually spill over into other representations of China. 
Why will it spill over?  
If we have a change in that TCM is completely useless, then we can refashion how the whole relationship is represented, that's the last Pam evidence.

EDIT: and why do you necessarily change the way it's represented?
Well not only because TCM is extremely beneficial, but also to solve for the otherization that results from the current depiction of China.

We don't reduce antibiotics, we present a viable way to solve for superbugs
So in the world of the aff, people still use antibiotics just as much as an the squo? Then how do you solve the advantage?
We don't claim to reduce antibiotics, we present TCM as a way to solve superbugs. We solve the superbugs threat with treatment.
 
Refer to the China depictions and indigenous knowledge advantages.
So you're saying we should weigh a vague affirmation of Chinese culture over millions of lives? Why?
You asked why we should vote aff if you win that western medicine has a more life saving potential. Refer to our framing as well, slow violence is better to prefer.

The tag of your OSTP evidence says that the plan "increases medical technology for both". You just read an entire advantage about how the spread of Western medical technology supplants TCM and thus suppresses indigenous culture. Can you explain what's going on here?
Can I get an answer to this question?
Question was answered.


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#6 CynicClinic

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Posted 16 June 2017 - 07:01 AM

Need a judge? Here's my paradigm.


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Nonegfiat. (2017, June 18). China VDebate- TheTrashDebater(Aff) v. Nonegfiat(Neg). Retrieved June 18, 2017, from https://www.cross-x....atneg/?p=939106

 

The 1NR is OK Computer.


#7 TheTrashDebater

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Posted 16 June 2017 - 07:47 AM

Need a judge? Here's my paradigm.


Thank you!!
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"Basically, my partner is Ryan Snow, not Paul Ryan."

 


#8 Nonegfiat

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Posted 16 June 2017 - 08:23 AM

8 off, Orientalism, Superbugs, Culture, 2622 words. open for cross

 

Attached File  1nc vs thetrashdebater.docx   58.47KB   92 downloads


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DOUBLE BIND- Either the harms of the aff are true and they can't solve until they control the levers of power OR the harms are constructed and you reject them for alarmism


#9 Nonegfiat

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Posted 16 June 2017 - 08:36 AM

8 off, Orientalism, Superbugs, Culture, 2622 words. open for cross
 
attachicon.gif1nc vs thetrashdebater.docx


Reading over this, i realize the first two off are kinda the same argument. So just go ahead and group them in the 2ac
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DOUBLE BIND- Either the harms of the aff are true and they can't solve until they control the levers of power OR the harms are constructed and you reject them for alarmism


#10 TheTrashDebater

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Posted 16 June 2017 - 09:06 AM

This can count as part of cross-x if you want it to, but I can group the first two off as the same argument?


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#11 Nonegfiat

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Posted 16 June 2017 - 09:16 AM

This can count as part of cross-x if you want it to, but I can group the first two off as the same argument?


If you like. Theyre technically different but theyre similar enough that it probably makes more sense to group them
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DOUBLE BIND- Either the harms of the aff are true and they can't solve until they control the levers of power OR the harms are constructed and you reject them for alarmism


#12 TheTrashDebater

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Posted 16 June 2017 - 09:54 AM

Here's CX:

Just overall-

What is the status of the CP, the Cap K, the Security K, the performance, the vagueness/ plan spec, the neg on presumption argument, and the T?

 

On the first two off-

You're claiming abuse that we kill off link ground but in your cap k and security k you have aff-specific links, which will you defend?

 

If I win that the plan isn't vague is the aff no longer abusive?

 

Then you talk about poor clash yet you had meaningful refutations to my case, which will you defend?

 

On the third off-

What is your definition of an action?

 

On the fourth off-

If the plan is abusive then why should we do it?

 

Why should we do the counterplan?

 

If I win that pressure doesn't work, does the counterplan have any weight in this round?

 

On the fifth off-

Is the fifth off a PIK?

 

If the disease is a legitimate threat shouldn't we try to solve it through policy action?

 

On the sixth off-

Is this just T saying that the plan isn't QPQ?

 

On the seventh off-

What exactly is the point of this?

 

On the eighth off-

Why should we weigh the impacts?
 

If TCM is already popular in the west why haven't the practices already been destroyed?
 

What does voting neg actually do outside of this debate right now?

 

On to the case:
On the Depiction of China advantage-

If I prove that TCM is important to China and its culture do I win the advantage?

 

In your Vadhana et al 15 card where does it talk about TCM in particular?

 

Then if one part of the depiction of China is changed doesn't that live up to the point of the advantage?

 

On the Super Bugs advantage-

On your Wishna 16 card where does it say the cure exists?
 

Also how do we know that the "cure" isn't toxic like the others?

 

Once again, where does your Vadhana et al 15 card specify TCM?

 

On the Culture advantage-

Where does the aff say we only promote TCM in the US?

 

Then if I win that TCM is being eliminated due to western pressures do I win the advantage?

 

Also if anyone else wants to judge they are welcome to if Nonegfiat is fine with it.


Edited by TheTrashDebater, 16 June 2017 - 09:55 AM.

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"Basically, my partner is Ryan Snow, not Paul Ryan."

 


#13 NickDB8

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Posted 16 June 2017 - 10:00 AM

I'll judge if we get a panel - My paradigm is over in the paradigm thread for the ODT

tldr, do whatever, just make it good

Edited by NickDB8, 16 June 2017 - 10:00 AM.

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#14 PailAmbrose

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Posted 16 June 2017 - 10:08 AM

If you need a 3rd judge I'd be happy to join in. I'm sure I've said my paradigm somewhere but I'll vote on anything that's well-explained and impacted out


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"They have done the most destructive, entirely insane thing that has ever been done. They've degraded debate. it's offensive. I'm sorry that you judges have had to listen to this, it's people like them that have destroyed the debate community"

 

-Missouri's reaction to a cap K


#15 TheTrashDebater

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Posted 16 June 2017 - 10:13 AM

I'll judge if we get a panel - My paradigm is over in the paradigm thread for the ODT

tldr, do whatever, just make it good

 

If you need a 3rd judge I'd be happy to join in. I'm sure I've said my paradigm somewhere but I'll vote on anything that's well-explained and impacted out

Thank you both and I hope this will be a fun round to judge!!!


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"Basically, my partner is Ryan Snow, not Paul Ryan."

 


#16 HEYEYEYEYEYEY

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Posted 16 June 2017 - 10:40 AM

I'm not really judging but for future reference, nonegfiat, you should always write out the mandate of the plan in the counterplan text instead of just saying "plan".


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#17 Nonegfiat

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Posted 16 June 2017 - 11:06 AM

Here's CX:

Just overall-

What is the status of the CP, the Cap K, the Security K, the performance, the vagueness/ plan spec, the neg on presumption argument, and the T?

everything is condo

 

also just fyi its a plague reps K, not a security K. So keep that in mind when going through your answers

 

On the first two off-

You're claiming abuse that we kill off link ground but in your cap k and security k you have aff-specific links, which will you defend?

those are both kritiks based on the discourse presented, not the action of the plan. I could have linked those with no plan text at all. You'll notice i have no links to the fiated implementation of the plan other than its vague affirmation of TCM in the west. That's because beyond that, I have no idea what the aff does. I especially have no idea what it does specifically in interaction with China, which is kind of the beginning and end of disad ground on this topic

 

If I win that the plan isn't vague is the aff no longer abusive?

Saying it's not abusive doesn't matter unless you prove you solve my standards

 

Then you talk about poor clash yet you had meaningful refutations to my case, which will you defend?

Considering half of my off case was theory, 1/8 was song lyrics, 1/8 was a generic counterplan, 1/8 was a generic kritik, and only 1 out of my 8 offcase args was germane to the aff (and even then, it's still not germane to the plan. it links to most affs that talk about disease), i'd question your standard for "meaningful refutations". But even still, it's not only about what you do, it's also what you justify. This is a vdebate, so i had a bit of time to cut cards, but in an actual round the neg would be screwed and we think that model for debate should be deterred. 

 

On the third off-

What is your definition of an action?

a specific policy advocacy

 

On the fourth off-

If the plan is abusive then why should we do it?

if you want to concede my case turns i will gladly kick the counterplan. 

 

Why should we do the counterplan?

it's net better than the aff because it solves human rights. the aff does not

 

If I win that pressure doesn't work, does the counterplan have any weight in this round?

i'm not sure what you mean by "pressure doesn't work". If you win a "say no" claim, then you take out the counterplan. If you're instead referring to the argument that china doesn't enforce HR agreements, i'd argue there's only a risk the cp is net better than the aff.

 

On the fifth off-

Is the fifth off a PIK?

it's a kritik of your representations. it's not concerned with the normative statement of the plan

 

If the disease is a legitimate threat shouldn't we try to solve it through policy action?

again, i dont think the kritik takes a position on policy. It's about how you represent disease and security. For you to say that disease is a big scary existential threat creates massive stigma against sick people

 

On the sixth off-

Is this just T saying that the plan isn't QPQ?

Yeah it's T QPQ

 

On the seventh off-

What exactly is the point of this?

I like it.

 

On the eighth off-

Why should we weigh the impacts?
because billions of people suffer in the status quo due to capitalism, and you say we should prefer those types of impacts

 

If TCM is already popular in the west why haven't the practices already been destroyed?

cap is in the process of destroying them. and again, if you want to concede that uniqueness argument, i will gladly kick the K
 

What does voting neg actually do outside of this debate right now?

I'm not sure i understand the question

 

On to the case:
On the Depiction of China advantage-

If I prove that TCM is important to China and its culture do I win the advantage?

No

 

In your Vadhana et al 15 card where does it talk about TCM in particular?

It talks about herbal medicine, which is how the aff understands TCM. Also, i don't think you've proven why the criticisms of herbal medicine dont apply to TCM

 

Then if one part of the depiction of China is changed doesn't that live up to the point of the advantage?

First, you'd need to prove that depiction of china is changed for the better, which we contest

Second, you read some pretty far-reaching impacts to orientalism, and we contest the ability of the aff to change those. I think affs have a burden to solve their 1ac impacts

 

On the Super Bugs advantage-

On your Wishna 16 card where does it say the cure exists?

Wishna is a lot more specific about solving superbugs than your solvency advocate is, so you need to deal with that first, but also the cure is being developed in the squo
 

Also how do we know that the "cure" isn't toxic like the others?

that's a pretty backward question. people asked the same thing when penicillin was invented but that ended up saving millions of lives

 

Once again, where does your Vadhana et al 15 card specify TCM?

asked and answered

 

On the Culture advantage-

Where does the aff say we only promote TCM in the US?

Well you're right, the aff doesn't explicitly say that, because the aff is super vague, but i'm assuming engagement through the OSTP means we promote it in the US, because i'm not sure we have the ability to influence China's domestic healthcare policies or that you have the ability to fiat that

 

Then if I win that TCM is being eliminated due to western pressures do I win the advantage?

No-- the aff does nothing in response to the spread of western health practices in china

 

Also if anyone else wants to judge they are welcome to if Nonegfiat is fine with it.

yep that's cool


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DOUBLE BIND- Either the harms of the aff are true and they can't solve until they control the levers of power OR the harms are constructed and you reject them for alarmism


#18 TheTrashDebater

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Posted 16 June 2017 - 11:11 AM

I'm not sure you understood my question, what are you trying to do with the 7th off?

 

Edit: Thanks for the clarification on the plague reps K btw


Edited by TheTrashDebater, 16 June 2017 - 11:13 AM.

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"Basically, my partner is Ryan Snow, not Paul Ryan."

 


#19 Nonegfiat

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Posted 16 June 2017 - 11:12 AM

I'm not really judging but for future reference, nonegfiat, you should always write out the mandate of the plan in the counterplan text instead of just saying "plan".

yeah sorry i always forget to do that


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DOUBLE BIND- Either the harms of the aff are true and they can't solve until they control the levers of power OR the harms are constructed and you reject them for alarmism


#20 Nonegfiat

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Posted 16 June 2017 - 11:13 AM

I'm not sure you understood my question, what are you trying to do with the 7th off?

It's airbag by radiohead. I enjoy the song, and so i decided to put the lyrics in the debate because i like them and it makes me happy to include them


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DOUBLE BIND- Either the harms of the aff are true and they can't solve until they control the levers of power OR the harms are constructed and you reject them for alarmism






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