Jump to content
ESUDebate

ESU CHAMP ROUND ROBIN 2005-06

Recommended Posts

This is preliminary note to generate interest.

 

It is our intention at ESU to hold a "champ" style policy round robin on the ESU campus in the fall of 2005-06. We've already conteacted Ryan McCoy, EHS, who has lent his support, although we understand Ryan won't be there next year, we had to make a decision. We'll be working with the new director as soon as a date is assigned to the EHS tournament. It is our intention to hold this round robin the same weekend as the Emporia High Tournament, assuming the dates are acceptable to our travel schedule.

 

We will be inviting teams for a 6 round tournament with a final round. The unique aspect of this round robin is that we will be inviting schools from out of state to attend, including the KC area. We will accept applications to ESU debate, and we will extend invitations to the top 7 teams, hopefully generating a geographic mix. We will use the same "collegiate" judging pool we use for the warmup in the spring. This is an actual tournament, however.

 

We don't know how the process will work, more later. We are using this effort to support top champ teams in the state who want a different experience. It might be possible to do more teams, we just don't have many details locked down. ESU will continue to host its National Warmup Tournament in the spring, meaning that there will be plenty of opportunities

to attend a tourney at ESU :) the pasta bar is ummm... good?

 

I wanted to generate interest, and as always we accept any feedback in a constructive spirit. Please inform your coaches, we have been spreading the word for many folks. It is hoped we can give "champ" style debate another outlet for debaters in Kansas.

 

Take care and good luck to everyone. When we start accepting applications we will let you know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With the coaching transition at Emporia High, we do not have a firm date, please be patient, and thanks for all the positive response so far.

 

Ken D.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
With the coaching transition at Emporia High, we do not have a firm date, please be patient, and thanks for all the positive response so far.

 

Ken D.

What coaching transition?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

that last post was ironically placed and punctuated.

 

Mr. McCoy (Ryan McCoy) who was slated last year to be the new incoming head coach at EHS for the 05-06 season has decided to take a job elsewhere.

 

word on the street is that the assistant coach for Goddard High School (not Mr. Abel, but the other guy...sorry, bad with names) is replacing Mr. McCoy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll yell at Wiens to post the new coaches name. I really don't mean to be offensive, I just think this is the way alot of people will know who we are talking about, but he looks like Quagmire off Family Guy.

 

I think his name is Randy Baldwin, I might be wrong.

 

-Paul

 

P.S.- Jamie how do you know the coaching situation at Emporia? I'm just curious.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

P.S.- Jamie how do you know the coaching situation at Emporia? I'm just curious.

 

The first post in the thread.

 

We've already conteacted Ryan McCoy, EHS, who has lent his support, although we understand Ryan won't be there next year, we had to make a decision. We'll be working with the new director as soon as a date is assigned to the EHS tournament.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Holy crap, can some sya Ka-dur for me? I didn't realize Jamie was directing his comment to Alex, I thought he was saying, The new Emporia High Coach will be Mr. McCoy (Who is there currently). Wow, I totally screwed that up

 

-Paul

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Overkill.

 

McCoy was a novice, if that helps to make Paul's post any funnier.

 

Let's get back to how awesome the round robin is going to be and why all the champ teams should come.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sweet merciful crap.

 

I sure as hell hope that post wasn't intended the way it comes across, Paul. If it wasn't, I'd make that clear pretty instantly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

McCoy was cool, one of the hippest teachers I knew, we just didn't agree on debate. It was a joke, the last sentance was sincere though.

 

Anyway, THIS ROUND ROBIN IS GOING TO BE LIKE TOTALLY AWESOME AND LIKE ALL THE CHAMP TEAMS SHOULD LIKE TOTALLY COME, LIKE TOTALLY.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Zahra and I almost cried when McCoy announced he was leaving. I mean, we thought there was no way anyone could replace him. His lectures about reflexive fiat, plan-plan, and definately his Kritikal floating pics good theory. He cut 1/2 of our files easily. He was a master of the K. He actually had a picture of himself with Zizek. I never knew fiat was bad, until I met him. He is now leaving to somewhere else, where he will inevitably coach a TOC champion team. McCoy also has the best track record I know of.... 3 Time NDT champ and 2 time top speaker! We would do speed drills with him, and he would destroy us with his quickness. I once did a practice round against McCoy and he ran 32 Off, Adv 1,3,5, Solvency and a fatally flawed argument flowed on the harms debate. I was able to cover, but the block was just devistating. I used to think it was impossible to read 200 cards in the 2nc, but wow, just wow. McCoy, you have seriously been cool, take it easy.

 

-Paul

 

 

this is probably why champ can only field enough teams for a round robin and why people are resistant to "champ" debate (something I am enjoying less and less everyday)

 

 

matt

 

DISCLAIMER:

I am saying i can UNDERSTAND why people are opposed to champ debate. And that I am frustrated with camp debate. I still prefer it to other types of debate. The problem I see is:

a) the arrogance that many camp debaters have thinking that because they ahve a different style they are better than others. I have seen some really champ teams that thought they were really good and some really good open teams or varsity teams...or where they varsity open?

b)the race to see who can make the stupidest argument...just because I am more open to arguments than a random lay judge doesn't mean I don't want to hear real arguments. I judged a round at some tournament where two teams that were clearly not champ debated about a DisAd and I enjoyed it, because they each made smart arguments. This happens in champ too, but many teams that are good at these arguments stay out of champ, which is sad and partly a fault of the dubious (i just realized what happens if you switch a few letters in dubious).

 

 

also I am sure paul ment this as an (unfunny) joke and this isn't (wholly) directed at him. I want to see champ survive and allow all types of arguments, including (hopefully) good ones.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This happens in champ too, but many teams that are good at these arguments stay out of champ, which is sad and partly a fault of the dubious (i just realized what happens if you switch a few letters in dubious).

 

My secret agendas and true nature have once again laid bare by spell-check.

 

Damn you, spell-check! I shall have my revenge! :mad:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i have some simple answers to these problems. i mean they are really simple considering that i'm sick and can't think well when i'm sick. here goes...

 

the remark made in a) is purely stylistic. if you make good arguments, it doesn't matter if you're fast or not. if you're efficient, it'll get you further than being fast. the best example i can remember is debating a ndt top speaker named corey rayburn from iowa. his colleague was quick. my colleague gave a great 1nc. in the 2ac, corey rayburn proceeded to speak slower than i do in a normal conversation and then kick my ass so bad in the 2ac that it was one of two times that i wanted to crawl under the desk and give up. as long as you make good arguments in an efficient manner, the fast debaters or the crazy debaters will fall to your superior argumentation. not to say that i don't like runnin' and gunnin' though...

 

in terms of B), i agree that some ridiculous arguments do get made. same thing--good arguments beat bad one. make them.

 

on a lighter note, i'm glad that esu is stepping up to the plate to host a champ round robin. now that i'm done with my brief stint with corporate america, i might make an appearance to judge.

 

peace,

andrew

 

 

 

DISCLAIMER:

I am saying i can UNDERSTAND why people are opposed to champ debate. And that I am frustrated with camp debate. I still prefer it to other types of debate. The problem I see is:

a) the arrogance that many camp debaters have thinking that because they ahve a different style they are better than others. I have seen some really champ teams that thought they were really good and some really good open teams or varsity teams...or where they varsity open?

b)the race to see who can make the stupidest argument...just because I am more open to arguments than a random lay judge doesn't mean I don't want to hear real arguments. I judged a round at some tournament where two teams that were clearly not champ debated about a DisAd and I enjoyed it, because they each made smart arguments. This happens in champ too, but many teams that are good at these arguments stay out of champ, which is sad and partly a fault of the dubious (i just realized what happens if you switch a few letters in dubious).

 

 

also I am sure paul ment this as an (unfunny) joke and this isn't (wholly) directed at him. I want to see champ survive and allow all types of arguments, including (hopefully) good ones.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe someone can run timecube at the super-cool ESU round robin? That might be fun, seeing as how it will be a champ-style tournament. I hear it's going to be one of the best tournaments of the season.

 

Back on track.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As much as I like to participate in the tearing down of someone's ego, I'll just stand by and watch that while attempting to get the thread on track..

 

Hengeli/Daugharthy will most certainly apply. We think, in our arrogance ;). that we'd be able to compete at this tournament... we enjoy that style of debate. We can only hope that we'll be accepted, and we'll do our best (without camp) to build on the limited success and the lessons of failure that we experienced at both Olathe South and Shawnee Mission East last year. So, in short, we will compete if allowed to compete; otherwise, I'm glad to see that someone is taking action to allow people like me to debate their preferred style. Personally I'd prefer a more open tournament, but as they say: beggars can't be choosers; I have faith that the ones choosing will pick the best teams for the atmosphere they are promoting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

HAHA. THIS THREAD HAS EVERYTHING. TIMECUBE, SNAPPLE, JASON RUSSELL, AND DUMBASSES WHINING ABOUT "CHAMP" DABAIT. HAHA.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I told myself I would not get into an argument but what the hell...

 

Oh my, look what I've gotten myself into again.

 

lol, I don't think my joke, unfunny or not is going to destroy champ debate. I think if McCoy read it he would laugh. I'm pretty sure you (Matt) don't know him at all and have no idea what he thinks would be funny and not. While the joke was posted to give others a laugh, I'm sure it's non-offensive to him.

my post was tangentially in response to your post and mainly just my thoughts, i think i clarifed that one above...if not, i will now. I don't know/care who McCoy i was just thinking aloud about champ.

 

Ah, arrogance. I'll watch my wording here, since I know I need to work on my inter-personal skills quite a bit. Almost every good debater is arrogant. When I went to camp and met people like Tejinder, Jason Russell, and especailly Sara Apel, they were all arrogant, cocky, and it was well deserved.

I am almost too awestruck to answer that one, I don't know why name dropping of assholes changes this. There are plenty of non-arrogant college debaters not that it matters. I mean look at MSU HV (note, this is a joke). My point is that people seem to think the MERE FACT that they do champ debate, whether good or bad makes them better.

 

My point is not that we should all be assholes, just that it is a common trait. I am one of the biggest assholes around, seriously. I don't think my "better than you" attitude will destroy champ debate though. College debate is constantly bringing in more people and most college debaters are cocky, and let us not forget, what is champ modeled after?

I don't think you will destroy champ debate, I appreciate your dedication to champ and debate. However, I am sure many people in power don't like arrogance...so why do it?

 

I don't want to make this a thread of personal attacks, but when you judged us both times, you were really pissed off, in my opinion (and at ESU, the opinion of other judges) was becausewe ran the K. I understand you would prefer politics, but these were not neccessarily bad deabtes.

ok ESU, that round was not enjoyable for lots of reasons, yeah I thought the aff was silly but the "mind control" counterplan also didnt make me happy (although that hutch team showed they are a team to look out for next year in a later round)...

 

Sure, I screwed up on XO, we didn't have ANY answers, but then the gendered language came, and that was the STRATEGIC OPTION for us. There was no way we were going to win the XO debate, we had a perm, which they beat us on. I still think we hands down won that debate (with influence from my arrogance again, and it being our first loss with gendered language). At ESU, I explained how we would answer an argument they didn't make that you said they should. I counted all three times I tried to answer, you said "that's stupid." Interesting how constructive that criticism is. I am not saying your judging wasn't appreciated, it was, the first time, we learned why an extinction impact on gend lang wasn't smart and the second time how to slightly adapt to policy focused judges. I thank you for your service to the community, but what you call stupid arguments, may actually be a little smarter than you think.

 

Gendered Lang/XO round- if i remember correctly you were annihilating that team on theory on the CP despite having no answers, you were also annihiating them on gendered language until you dropped two arguments. (Ironically one of the arguments was "you are only using this as a STRATEGIC OPTION which delegitmates your advocacy and is a reason to reject the arg)...I am a stickler for the flow, sorry.

 

ESU- had there been a ballot you can be assured you would have won, even though I thought the aff had problems but I think every aff has problems and I vote aff like it is my job. I thought we had a very constructive discussion after the round. I believe that you now are/should be ready to answer the argument that I thought of in the post-round that says "all you do is recognize genocide, sit around and do nothing about it". I sure as hell don't know how to answer it because I think it is ture. As for the "that's stupid" comment, I have one belief about non-negotiable rules of debate and that is the AFF must defend the resolution. Seems reasonable, but I would have voted for you even though you didnt. I am unable to provide you with logical or compelling reasons why you don't have to defend the resolution, sorry. I think the reasons you gave were not compelling at all, but you can win them, and you did.

 

Perhaps "time cube" (no offense Mark, just an example) is not a smart argument, but what is? Is debating some politics disad going to really stop Bush from drilling ANWR (Too late)? Fiat isn't real, and that puts us in quite the bind, what is a good argument? I think Matt Cook says it best "arguments are arguments, people shouldn't whine about stupid arguments they lost to, they should beat them, then people wouldn't run those arguments, because they would lose."

 

I conceed, time cube is a stupid argument.

Lots of people run stupid arguments.

Ok...now this FIAT thing, for real. No arguments in debate do anything, they are arguments we debate to win. Except for that one round (last year at Wake) a judge has never actually stopped bush from doing anything. But I like policy debates. I ever said you can't run your K's. The problem is the ratio of outlandish arguments that are unaccepatlbe in other divisions to good argumnts (hell, even a good normal K argument) is out of control. In collge, (which seems to be your model) the reason people run timecube, spark, anarchy, whatever is because most every other round is a debate with things called DisAd's and Counterplans and case debates. The arguments that are now the CORE of kansas champ debate are on the margins of college debate, this is what is disturbing and is probably my biggest point. Why do I see better DisAd debate in open than in champ? Do they not run DA's in collge? God i hope they do.

 

Also, I agree w/ Matt Cook and I am not complaining about losing to stupid arguments, I am complaining about having to judge them.

 

I am sorry for getting this thread off track, I just felt the need to reply.

same here.

 

 

Onto the tourney...

 

How many champ teams for next year will be interested in attending?

 

I guessed the Rubanger, what ever A team Whicita East puts together (Will it be Quigley/Woolford, Woolford/Shaw, or Shaw/Quigley? Stay tuned), and I assume John Cook and who he debates with as well as Hengeli and his collegue.

 

from what i hear steve and evan hope to be there, assuming they start cutting cards.....now

 

matt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

from what i hear steve and evan hope to be there, assuming they start cutting cards.....now

 

cutting cards... doing speed drills .... whatever :)

 

 

I cant wait for this to happen. I also heard somewhere in the great big rumor mill that is debate that some other tournies will be hosting champ round robins woohoo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
from what i hear steve and evan hope to be there, assuming they start cutting cards.....now

 

Umm... we're DEBATERS not RESEARCHERS, cutting cards is your job. My summer is already scheduled... poker, Quantum Leap DVDs, and sitting on my ass leaves no time for "card cutting" or "topic research". All I need to do is to buy the WGLF Ashtar file and I'll be set... aff and neg. This is champ debate, not policy debate.

 

 

 

[edit: don't take the above seriously... and no, I don't think Matt exists to just cut cards... he exists to cut cards and watch football.]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

the "mind control" counterplan also didnt make me happy (although that hutch team showed they are a team to look out for next year in a later round)...

 

matt

 

Understandable, I can't say I disagree, on the first part. Thank you and we hope so, on the second part.

 

About the tournament...No idea whether we would apply... it could be a little outside our realm, but who knows.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...