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Immigration Topic: vmanAA738 (a) vs jmeza111401

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cool first debate on this topic heres cx

1. what part of the federal government are you using ?

2. How will the dream act affect the economy? how much money will be spent?

3. Is politics necessary for "illegal" immigrants ?

4. do you fiat the federal government passing the dream act under the trump era?

5. there will be followups 

Edited by jmeza111401

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any and all are welcome to judge- i don't come into this with the spirit of competition, only learning and topic exploration- basically a camp demo debate

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cool first debate on this topic heres cx

1. what part of the federal government are you using ?

the plan is normal means of the federal legislative process; the bill is introduced then passed by both houses of congress and then signed into law by the president

2. How will the dream act affect the economy? how much money will be spent?

I don't claim any economy advantage or offense- the 1AC does not have an answer for how the bill affects the economy; anecdotally, studies and the literature broadly claim the bill is good for the economy; the dream act does not involve spending- we change laws relating to citizenship and immigration

3. Is politics necessary for "illegal" immigrants ?

i'm not sure what you mean by this question so i'll answer it the best I can; our ethics advantage claims that being allowed to have a voice and partake and make choices in and about our political system is necessary to be a citizen of a nation and have equal standing to other citizens within a nation- so in essence being able to make choices about politics- even to not engage or reject politics is necessary for dreamers

4. do you fiat the federal government passing the dream act under the trump era?

yes.

5. there will be followups 

go for it

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I'm sorry but finals and project got me swamped I won't be able to continue if anyone wants to take my place or something go for it im sorry Vinay

Edited by jmeza111401

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I'm sorry but finals and project got me swamped I won't be able to continue if anyone wants to take my place or something go for it im sorry Vinay

Hey it's okay- everyone gets busy. 

 

 

If you want to takeover the round, either post CX of the 1AC or fire a 1NC here.

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I can take over!

 

CX - plan

1. for what group of people are restrictions on immigration reduced?

2. how do you verify the age at which an immigrant enterred the us illegally?

 

On soft power:

1. what are the warrants in sobhani 11?

2. Kroenig et al 10 says more US soft power solves democracy by allowing the US to intervene in foreign governments. are interventions the only internal link to democracy?

3. none of your soft power/democracy/nuclear war impact cards are in the context of the aff. whats the warrant as to why the aff provides enough soft power to avert nuclear terrorism?

 

On ethics:

1. "statelessness" in the context of sebastian 13 is sort of defined as having a country to protect you. why is depending onthe state for protection a good thing?

2. is nuclear war worse than dehumanization/other forms of structural violence?

3. what's "jus nexi", "jus soli" and "jus sanguinis" and how do they pertain to the aff?

Edited by joni
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I can take over!

 

CX - plan

1. for what group of people are restrictions on immigration reduced?

dreamers- people who entered into the U.S. illegally as children because of their parents actions

2. how do you verify the age at which an immigrant entered the us illegally?

there is an 8 step process to this: 1. they have to be undocumented, a DACA recipient, or have a TPS beneficiary, 2.  enter the U.S. before age of 18, 3. be continuously physically present in the U.S. for 4 years prior to Dream Act enactment, 4. maintain continuous presence until date of application, 5. meet education requirements (get a HS diploma, GED, be admitted to college, or be currently enrolled in one of these options), 6. have no criminal convictions, 7. pass a medical exam, 8. pass a background check----credible documentation would have to be provided by the applicant to verify passage of these steps

 

On soft power:

1. what are the warrants in sobhani 11?

first, passing the dream act reaffirms american values to foreign countries who model the U.S. 

second, passing the dream act allows for wealth creation in countries where recipients emigrated from through sending remittances or by allowing freedom of movement back to these countries to develop/better these areas

third, allows development of industry in impoverished countries lacking skills and capital base to industrially develop since some dream act recipients would go back to these countries and use their U.S.-made human capital and training there since they have freedom of movement and rights protections

2. Kroenig et al 10 says more US soft power solves democracy by allowing the US to intervene in foreign governments. are interventions the only internal link to democracy?

this is a misreading of kroenig- it's not that the U.S. directly intervenes and topples a foreign government a la Iraq or Afghanistan---it's rather the U.S. empowers local dissidents to transmit and spread American ideas of democracy and American values to fight authoritarian regimes to topple them

3. none of your soft power/democracy/nuclear war impact cards are in the context of the aff. whats the warrant as to why the aff provides enough soft power to avert nuclear terrorism?

the idea of the aff is that passing the dream act rebuilds American soft power by returning to stable, pre-Trump American values sufficiently to allow countries to once again view the U.S in a favorable light, allowing deeper and credible cooperation on issues such as terrorism.

 

On ethics:

1. "statelessness" in the context of sebastian 13 is sort of defined as having a country to protect you. why is depending on the state for protection a good thing?

it's a good thing because without state protection, stateless individuals are subject to arbitrary detention, rights violations and violence against them by private individuals and groups as well as the state since stateless individuals are not subject to legal protections and rights endowed to citizens of a state- the plan gives dreamers these legal protections and rights stopping all of these bad things from happening to them

2. is nuclear war worse than dehumanization/other forms of structural violence?

we do not speak to nuclear war specifically, but our evidence makes philosophical claims that you have an apriori ethical obligation to help those in immediate suffering now

3. what's "jus nexi", "jus soli" and "jus sanguinis" and how do they pertain to the aff?

jus nexi is a new doctrine of citizenship law which states that citizenship in a state can be earned upon establishment of genuine ties to the political community, establishment of strong connection to the state's identity, and making positive contributions to the community (stakeholder citizenship)

jus soli is a doctrine of citizenship law which states that people born in a territory of a state gets citizenship in that state (birthright citizenship)

jus sanguinis is a doctrine of citizenship law by which citizenship is not determined by place of birth but by having one or both parents who are citizens of the state (bloodright citizenship)

these all pertain to the aff because passing the dream act allows us to add the jus nexi principle in U.S. citizenship law by providing a pathway to U.S. citizenship for dreamers; in contrast, U.S. citizenship law is now only rooted in jus soli and jus sanguinis---we result in legal doctrine change to U.S. citizenship law

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2. how do you verify the age at which an immigrant entered the us illegally?

there is an 8 step process to this: 1. they have to be undocumented, a DACA recipient, or have a TPS beneficiary, 2.  enter the U.S. before age of 18, 3. be continuously physically present in the U.S. for 4 years prior to Dream Act enactment, 4. maintain continuous presence until date of application, 5. meet education requirements (get a HS diploma, GED, be admitted to college, or be currently enrolled in one of these options), 6. have no criminal convictions, 7. pass a medical exam, 8. pass a background check----credible documentation would have to be provided by the applicant to verify passage of these steps

 

 

for step 2, how do you ensure they aren't lying about the age they entered the US

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2. how do you verify the age at which an immigrant entered the us illegally?

there is an 8 step process to this: 1. they have to be undocumented, a DACA recipient, or have a TPS beneficiary, 2.  enter the U.S. before age of 18, 3. be continuously physically present in the U.S. for 4 years prior to Dream Act enactment, 4. maintain continuous presence until date of application, 5. meet education requirements (get a HS diploma, GED, be admitted to college, or be currently enrolled in one of these options), 6. have no criminal convictions, 7. pass a medical exam, 8. pass a background check----credible documentation would have to be provided by the applicant to verify passage of these steps

 

 

for step 2, how do you ensure they aren't lying about the age they entered the US

they have to provide credible evidence to prove they entered before 18 in order to be eligible for the dream act

 

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thanks, thats all for cx

 

never done a vdebate so could you clarify the word limits on speeches?

also since this is the first debate on this topic, are you okay with longer delays between speeches since I've gotta cut everything from scratch?

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thanks, thats all for cx

 

never done a vdebate so could you clarify the word limits on speeches?

also since this is the first debate on this topic, are you okay with longer delays between speeches since I've gotta cut everything from scratch?

yeah longer delays are fine

word limits: 2700 for 1AC-2NC; 1650 for 1NR-2AR

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i was using the joni account for anonymity since some ppl know i'm on this account irl but its whatever i'll just use this cuz i keep accidently posting on this account. 

 

heres 1nc. open for cx. 

 

1NC v vman.docx

Edited by debateak

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CX:

status of the K/CP?

 

T-Immigration:

what is the violation?

merriam webster states immigration is "an act or instance of immigrating" right before you start highlighting--how do we not meet this?

 

court packing DA:

are federal judges getting confirmed now?

point me a line in dechiaro which supports immigration quotas increasing now?

so blackman says court expansion is unnecessary and won't happen in the squo but klain says court expansion will happen imminently---which is it?

 

cruel optimism:

is there an alternative/advocacy or is this a truth testing argument?

 

college DA:

what is the internal link between higher earnings and the economic inequality impact?

camarota is from 2010: 3 questions- has state funding for colleges/universities increased since then? have undocumented students attended college since then? has there been an increase in "American" students attending since then?

how is a student loan a taxpayer subsidy?

 

midterms DA:

since impeachment requires senate approval, how does the DA access senate control given your evidence only claims democrats have a shot at the house?

where does taylor support the idea that passing immigration legislation causes a republican spike in turnout directly?

why has the democratic lead shrunk?

 

50 states CP (ughhhh): 

how does this solve the aff?

what limits are placed on federal immigration cooperation?

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CX:

status of the K/CP?

condo

T-Immigration:

what is the violation?

the DREAM act provides conditional residence which justifies conditional immigration affs and it doesnt directly increase travel into the country

merriam webster states immigration is "an act or instance of immigrating" right before you start highlighting--how do we not meet this?

really dont understand this question. of course immigration is the act or instance of immigrating but that doesnt really further define the term at all... the part we highlight qualifies "the act of immigrating" as "travel into a country for the purpose of permanent residence"

 

court packing DA:

are federal judges getting confirmed now?

point me a line in dechiaro which supports immigration quotas increasing now?

so blackman says court expansion is unnecessary and won't happen in the squo but klain says court expansion will happen imminently---which is it?

okay i'll just clarify the story of the DA. right now, there is a pretty bad backlog of cases in immigration courts. trump is trying to remedy this but according to DeChiaro, trump's original approach of increasing quotas of cases judges have to hear annually isn't working ("imposing strict performance requirements"; "the new performance standards — completing at least 700 cases a year with an appeals rate of under 15 percent"; "instead of reducing the backlog, it will increase the backlog"). Trump has begun to add judges but it isn't on a large scale(which is why DeChiaro says dems are okay with it). the aff will change all of that because it justifies trump appointing a lot more judges. Klain ev doesn't say court expansion will happen imminently, rather it's an analysis of Calabresi's proposal to pack the courts. 

 

 

cruel optimism:

is there an alternative/advocacy or is this a truth testing argument?

i suppose the alt is pure negation and a refusal to do anything/invest in any fiated productive solution the debate space offers

 

college DA:

what is the internal link between higher earnings and the economic inequality impact?

the plan prevents white American kids from access to higher earnings which contributes to things like xenophobia and a rallying of poor whites under nationalism

camarota is from 2010: 3 questions- has state funding for colleges/universities increased since then? have undocumented students attended college since then? has there been an increase in "American" students attending since then?

i dont think funding for colleges has increased substantially since then but even if it has the plan pushes 1 million more students into college which will still cost taxpayers an additional $6 billion. camarota accounts for undocumented students already attending college: (this is from the article) "The estimate is only for new students not yet enrolled. It does not include illegal immigrants currently enrolled at public institutions or those who have already completed two years of college. Moreover, it does not include the modest number of illegal immigrants who are expected to attend private institutions." idk if there's been an increase in american students attending but it doesnt really matter because a sudden increase of a million students is still going to force tuition increases and crowd out american students

 

how is a student loan a taxpayer subsidy?

that's not the argument. Under the aff, DREAMers get access to in-state tuition which is cheaper than out-of-state tuition because taxpayers subsidize in-state students. the $6 billion number is calculated by using the average difference in tuition for instate and outofstate universities. camarota assumes 80% of DREAMers will go to community college and 20% go to state schools, and the average difference between in-state tuition and out-of-state tuition is about $6,000. that multiplied by 1 million students is $6 billion that taxpayers have to cover. 

 

 

midterms DA:

since impeachment requires senate approval, how does the DA access senate control given your evidence only claims democrats have a shot at the house?

none of our ev says dems wont win senate. prokop's first line is that that GOP could lose control of either house but i can read ev saying they have a shot at the senate in the 2nc. additionally, it doesnt really matter because even if they only win house majority, they still get subpoena power for documents and witnesses. even if gop retains a senate majority, if dems find incriminating ev through subpoenas, a gop senate would have their hands tied. 

where does taylor support the idea that passing immigration legislation causes a republican spike in turnout directly?

taylor says voter turnout drops hella during midterm elections and that the typical trump voter supports deportation and is specifically against DREAMers because of "build the wall" and their calling MS13 members "animals". the aff plan would make it easy for trump-like stances on immigration to garner support and bring out trump voters in droves. 

why has the democratic lead shrunk?

not completely sure but i dont think it matters. yglesias says polling in december isn't nearly as accurate nor as valuable as polling now because june is a lot closer to midterms and any giant legislative issues are a lot more likely to impact voters now than they were in november. so all that really matters is that dems are slightly leading now. 

 

50 states CP (ughhhh): 

how does this solve the aff?

empirically reinforces trust in local police and shows support for undocumented people. solves ehtics better than the aff because it applies to all undocumented people, not just DREAMers. also solves soft power because nobody really trust/believes trump anymore so even if his rhetoric is xenophobic, other countries would know the rest of the us is with them. your wilson 11 ev corroborates this as well: "other countries often distinguished between acts by the United States’ government and the feelings of the American people, giving as an example the Bush administration being negatively viewed because of its pursuit of war in Iraq, yet Americans as a whole being absolved of blame."

 

what limits are placed on federal immigration cooperation?

steinmetz 17 says "Measures range from treating schools and courthouses as “safe zones” to restricting the ability of law enforcement to detain people on behalf of federal immigration officers"

 

also feel free to take your time with the 2ac - i won't be able to start writing the 2nc until tuesday

Edited by debateak

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My count says the 2ac was 3091 words so ima reciprocate in the 2nc. Lemme know if my count was wrong

case:

if dehumanization is so bad, whyd you read an extinction impact in the 1ac?

 

 

k:

whats the perm look like?

 

cp:

if neg condo is bad, why is 2ac pivot and you kicking the soft power adv as a no risk option not also bad?

If I said status was dispo, how would that have changed the 2ac?

 

Courts da:

Im really confused about the process for gaining citizenship. Batara says there could be a 3-5 year waiting period just for an interview and then a 6 year waiting period after that. Can you clarify how long the entire process takes?

Miller 6 is only about the supreme court not checking back exec power. Why does this mean lower courts aren’t key to check back exec?\

 

College da:

What specifically about camarota’s study is biased? I understand you think cis itself is biased but why does that invalidate every study they publish?

Does ulfelder 16 give a logical warrant for why inequality wouldn’t cause conflict or is it just like saying the data comparing them usually sucks?

I don’t understand ur argument about the dream act actually saving the fed government money because the literally the first page of the cbo study says “CBO and the staff of the Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) estimate that enacting S. 1615 would increase direct spending by $26.8 billion over the 2018-2027 period. Over that same period, CBO and JCT estimate that the bill would increase revenues, on net, by $0.9 billion—a decline in on-budget revenues of $4.3 billion and an increase in offbudget revenues of $5.3 billion.”    Which is it?

 

midterms da:

if national polling averages are unreliable, what kind of polling is reliable?

what kind of polling is salvanto based on?

re 6/7 says even "hard right" Republicans are willing to pass the DREAM act as a compromise. why doesnt this mean the aff isnt inherent?

Edited by debateak

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My count says the 2ac was 3091 words so ima reciprocate in the 2nc. Lemme know if my count was wrong

case:

if dehumanization is so bad, whyd you read an extinction impact in the 1ac?

To hedge against potential neg shenanigans and to engage in a balanced risk analysis

 

k:

whats the perm look like?

If you win the premise that the alt is a valid explanation for some issue and set of issues, then the theory of methodological pluralism is the perm as described by the bleiler evidence

 

cp:

if neg condo is bad, why is 2ac pivot and you kicking the soft power adv as a no risk option not also bad?

We don't think we've pivoted anything and we haven't kicked out of an entire position as neg condo allows you to do- you still get to read offense to our core policy action we defend whereas if you kick the cp or k we no longer get access to any argumentation against them

If I said status was dispo, how would that have changed the 2ac?

I wouldn't have read condo bad, I would've straight turned the k and read offense on the counterplan

 

Courts da:

Im really confused about the process for gaining citizenship. Batara says there could be a 3-5 year waiting period just for an interview and then a 6 year waiting period after that. Can you clarify how long the entire process takes?

3 year waiting for an interview, 6 year probation period where applicants have to keep noses clean to gain permanent resident status at end of period, then a 5 year wait to apply for u.s. citizenship

Miller 6 is only about the supreme court not checking back exec power. Why does this mean lower courts aren’t key to check back exec?\

Courts overall do not intervene in executive power cases unless Congressional majorities want to do so. All court cases cited in Miller started in lower courts as normal means and then were appealed all the way to the supreme court- all ended in rulings following the non intervention doctrine on executive power in areas of war and national security and military issues-it proves at all levels historically over past hundred years courts haven't checked the executive

 

College da:

What specifically about camarota’s study is biased? I understand you think cis itself is biased but why does that invalidate every study they publish?

Our cbo evidence disproves all of what camerota claims, it's a more recent analysis, camerota comes from a partisan organization looking to push an anti-immigration agenda, and his study is not rigorous in methodology, data used, and its analysis---- that's why camerota should be invalidated- its widely known in immigration debates that cis are conservative anti-immigrant hacks

Does ulfelder 16 give a logical warrant for why inequality wouldn’t cause conflict or is it just like saying the data comparing them usually sucks?

It disproves the link between inequality and conflict as well as is an indict of studies and articles that claim there is a link using data analysis and metanalysis of methods used in the literature

I don’t understand ur argument about the dream act actually saving the fed government money because the literally the first page of the cbo study says “CBO and the staff of the Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) estimate that enacting S. 1615 would increase direct spending by $26.8 billion over the 2018-2027 period. Over that same period, CBO and JCT estimate that the bill would increase revenues, on net, by $0.9 billion—a decline in on-budget revenues of $4.3 billion and an increase in offbudget revenues of $5.3 billion.”    Which is it?

Your link evidence is making a very specific claim that federal education benefits will rise by $6 billion per year- that is the specific claim we are disproving and claiming only consideration of federal education benefits means plan turns a profit- it's also the only claim relevant to the disad which is predicated upon increased spending in the education budget

midterms da:

if national polling averages are unreliable, what kind of polling is reliable?

For house elections, you are better off looking at data district by district and aggregating data such that you make seat predictions not vote percentage predictions-democrats won 1.4 million more votes than Republicans in the 2012 house elections and yet only gained 8 seats and didn't retake the majority

what kind of polling is salvanto based on?

Exactly what I describe above-district by district polling data aggregated into seat projections

re 6/7 says even "hard right" Republicans are willing to pass the DREAM act as a compromise. why doesnt this mean the aff isnt inherent?

You misread the evidence- it's not saying that the dream act is going to pass-the line clearly states they are willing to consider and vote on temporary status for dreamers (like a visa)-thats not permanent resident status or a path to citizenship which are core things the dream act provides

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just to clarify:

dispo on the condition that i cant kick if you read offense solves the condo offense?

are condo, solvency advocate, and 50 state fiat bad the only theoretical offense out of the 2ac?

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