Texas Teams?

[TheTrashDebater 168]

Do we know the result of TFA state finals, the results haven't been posted on joy

[rocketlizard74 0]

1. Greenhill AE

2/3. Coppell DR and Westwood BS (Both teams have had amazing years and can’t decide between them)

4. Hendrickson GS ( watched dubs v Jesuit and Dylan’s 2AR was golden)

5. Woodlands MR

6. Jesuit HM

7. Greenhill LW

8. Jesuit GN (Quarters finish at TFA I think i gives them more weight than HT

9. LASA CU

10. Highland Park ML

Edited March 21, 2019 by rocketlizard74

[rocketlizard74 0]

3 minutes ago, TheTrashDebater said:

Do we know the result of TFA state finals, the results haven't been posted on joy

Greenhill AE and Coppell DR were Co-Champs

[lockedinspace 0]

12 hours ago, rocketlizard74 said:

1. Greenhill AE

2/3. Coppell DR and Westwood BS (Both teams have had amazing years and can’t decide between them)

4. Hendrickson GS ( watched dubs v Jesuit and Dylan’s 2AR was golden)

 5. Woodlands MR

 6. Jesuit HM

7. Greenhill LW

8. Jesuit GN (Quarters finish at TFA I think i gives them more weight than HT

9. LASA CU

10. Highland Park ML

Agreed. This does seem more reasonable. Maybe Greenhill LW should be lower because they've been kinda out of it lately - wasn't only half of them at TFA?

[rocketlizard74 0]

7 minutes ago, lockedinspace said:

Agreed. This does seem more reasonable. Maybe Greenhill LW should be lower because they've been kinda out of it lately - wasn't only half of them at TFA?

Yah. Only Timothy was there. But they are LW is still going to the TOC so I think that spot suits them.

[rocketlizard74 0]

Just now, rocketlizard74 said:

Yah. Only Timothy was there. But they are LW is still going to the TOC so I think that spot suits them.

Also I didn’t include Kinkaid HK because at TFA state they broke as the 9 seed and lost to the 24. Don’t get me wrong they are an amazing team and would destroy me but they didn’t make my top 10. Quite possibly my #11

[Carnage 0]

5 minutes ago, rocketlizard74 said:

Also I didn’t include Kinkaid HK because at TFA state they broke as the 9 seed and lost to the 24. Don’t get me wrong they are an amazing team and would destroy me but they didn’t make my top 10. Quite possibly my #11

That moment when you use a single tournament (TFA state), where half the judging pool is not qualified to judge and where 5 elims (bracket breaking included) are crammed into a day, to evaluate the top Texas teams who have a year’s worth of tournaments behind their backs. 

[rocketlizard74 0]

6 minutes ago, Carnage said:

That moment when you use a single tournament (TFA state), where half the judging pool is not qualified to judge and where 5 elims (bracket breaking included) are crammed into a day, to evaluate the top Texas teams who have a year’s worth of tournaments behind their backs. 

I just think the other 10 teams have had better years (maybe minus Jesuit GN). Like I said Kinkaid HK is a great team and they’d destroy me. I still think their good and my #11

[rocketlizard74 0]

Also if y’all have some specific tournaments I should look into to form my opinion better that’d be great

[BestGreenhillDebater 7]

3 hours ago, Carnage said:

That moment when you use a single tournament (TFA state), where half the judging pool is not qualified to judge and where 5 elims (bracket breaking included) are crammed into a day, to evaluate the top Texas teams who have a year’s worth of tournaments behind their backs. 

bro tfa is a perfect tournament

Edited March 21, 2019 by BestGreenhillDebater

[elmeryang00 134]

27 minutes ago, rocketlizard74 said:

Also I didn’t include Kinkaid HK because at TFA state they broke as the 9 seed and lost to the 24. Don’t get me wrong they are an amazing team and would destroy me but they didn’t make my top 10. Quite possibly my #11

One loss doesn't dictate a season. Upsets happen all the time at TFA State. Westwood GN lost to Hendrickson GS as the higher seed last year, doesn't mean that they're better. Neither does Westwood CS losing in Doubles (while still being regarded as a Top 10 team afterwards). Kinkaid has been seriously underrated throughout the season - 3 bids including Greenhill and Lexington plus a Semis showing at Houston shows a lot. It's also the same amount of bids as Highland Park LM, and more bids than LASA CU, Jesuit GN, and Westwood BS.  

Another thing to note, Coppell DR should be the sole 2 over Westwood BS. While Westwood BS is good, all of their bids and success writ large have happened at the main Texas bid tournaments (UH and UT because mostly Texas schools who then go to TFA go there). The sole major win over Coppell DR (that I know of) was UT Finals which happened at the RR after a very late previous day. BS also lost Houston to half of Hendrickson GS and without Coppell DR competing. Coppell DR has sustained success at the more national Texas tournaments - bids at Greenhill and Colleyville (I think winning). I'm not going to use winning TFA State as a metric as I know Westwood had a much more difficult semis match-up in Greenhill AE.

Note - This things are notoriously difficult to do because different teams go to different tournaments with different match-ups so its hard to compare them. For example, if Greenhill AE had gone to Colleyville, UH, and UT (where Coppell and Westwood had a lot of their success), a lot of things could have changed. 

[rocketlizard74 0]

I should probably be prepping for UIL state tomorrow instead of being on here. But.........

I think at the point where we evaluate teams based on full year stats.............

1. Greenhill AE

2. Coppell DR

3. Westwood BS

4. Hendrickson GS

5. Jesuit HM

6. Woodlands MR

7.  LASA CU

8. Kinkaid HK

9. Greenhill LW

10. Highland Park LM

All of this i think will change after the TOC but for now this is it

[VishvakBandi 5]

1 hour ago, rocketlizard74 said:

I should probably be prepping for UIL state tomorrow instead of being on here. But.........

I think at the point where we evaluate teams based on full year stats.............

1. Greenhill AE

2. Coppell DR

3. Westwood BS

4. Hendrickson GS

5. Jesuit HM

6. Woodlands MR

7.  LASA CU

8. Kinkaid HK

9. Greenhill LW

10. Highland Park LM

All of this i think will change after the TOC but for now this is it

Rankings are always whack but fr y'all did woodlands dirty. Quarters at Berkeley and semis at TFA after going 6-0 (beating Hendrickson GS, LASA CU twice, and Jesuit GN) is a pretty big deal. They're really good debaters who've beaten some really good teams - they should probably be tied for 4 or something with Hendrickson. This is honestly pretty hard to do well because we've never seen half these teams debate each other (ie. LASA CU not hitting the majority of these teams). I think these teams are 100% the top 10 teams in Texas. 

[rounreck 0]

12 hours ago, elmeryang00 said:

One loss doesn't dictate a season. Upsets happen all the time at TFA State. Westwood GN lost to Hendrickson GS as the higher seed last year, doesn't mean that they're better. Neither does Westwood CS losing in Doubles (while still being regarded as a Top 10 team afterwards). Kinkaid has been seriously underrated throughout the season - 3 bids including Greenhill and Lexington plus a Semis showing at Houston shows a lot. It's also the same amount of bids as Highland Park LM, and more bids than LASA CU, Jesuit GN, and Westwood BS.  

Another thing to note, Coppell DR should be the sole 2 over Westwood BS. While Westwood BS is good, all of their bids and success writ large have happened at the main Texas bid tournaments (UH and UT because mostly Texas schools who then go to TFA go there). The sole major win over Coppell DR (that I know of) was UT Finals which happened at the RR after a very late previous day. BS also lost Houston to half of Hendrickson GS and without Coppell DR competing. Coppell DR has sustained success at the more national Texas tournaments - bids at Greenhill and Colleyville (I think winning). I'm not going to use winning TFA State as a metric as I know Westwood had a much more difficult semis match-up in Greenhill AE.

Note - This things are notoriously difficult to do because different teams go to different tournaments with different match-ups so its hard to compare them. For example, if Greenhill AE had gone to Colleyville, UH, and UT (where Coppell and Westwood had a lot of their success), a lot of things could have changed. 

1. I think the issue with HK is that one of their bids this year was from a tournament that wasn't really a tournament (Lexington) and they haven't really had a trend to their success. No shade though because those girls are on fire.

2. Westwood BS didn't lose to half of Hendrickson GS at Houston. They lost to Little Rock GL on a 2-1 who I've heard are VERY good (they 3-0'd Hebron KL, beat LASA IJ, and picked up a ballot vs. half of Hendrickson GS at Houston. I also think most people who have watched Westwood just feel that team deserved to be way more successful before UT (also people on here seem to place less importance on earlier tournaments because they know it takes some time to get the ball rolling). Also, debating after numerous days is kinda characteristic of debate tournaments so it's weird to say finals of UT RR isn't representative. 

Agreed though - making exact lists is difficult.

10 hours ago, VishvakBandi said:

Rankings are always whack but fr y'all did woodlands dirty. Quarters at Berkeley and semis at TFA after going 6-0 (beating Hendrickson GS, LASA CU twice, and Jesuit GN) is a pretty big deal. They're really good debaters who've beaten some really good teams - they should probably be tied for 4 or something with Hendrickson. This is honestly pretty hard to do well because we've never seen half these teams debate each other (ie. LASA CU not hitting the majority of these teams). I think these teams are 100% the top 10 teams in Texas. 

This is very accurate in hindsight. Woodlands should be tied with Hendrickson with 4.

[elmeryang00 134]

On 3/21/2019 at 11:49 PM, rounreck said:

1. I think the issue with HK is that one of their bids this year was from a tournament that wasn't really a tournament (Lexington) and they haven't really had a trend to their success. No shade though because those girls are on fire.

2. Westwood BS didn't lose to half of Hendrickson GS at Houston. They lost to Little Rock GL on a 2-1 who I've heard are VERY good (they 3-0'd Hebron KL, beat LASA IJ, and picked up a ballot vs. half of Hendrickson GS at Houston. I also think most people who have watched Westwood just feel that team deserved to be way more successful before UT (also people on here seem to place less importance on earlier tournaments because they know it takes some time to get the ball rolling). Also, debating after numerous days is kinda characteristic of debate tournaments so it's weird to say finals of UT RR isn't representative. 

Agreed though - making exact lists is difficult.

This is very accurate in hindsight. Woodlands should be tied with Hendrickson with 4.

1. I agree that there is a lack of consistency but that's because of a large sample size and that issue plagues almost every team on this list sans Greenhill AE. Kinkaid has shown up for a lot of tournaments when it really matters and a Doubles loss at TFA shouldn't matter when Coppell DR dropped Triples at Berkeley. I'm a bit confused when you say Lexington wasn't a tournament - LASA, NoBro, Edgemont, Strath Haven, Georgetown Day are all TOC-qualled. 

2. You right, I got confused about the pairings, that's my bad. I've judged LRCH before, they're brutally effective on the LBL and definitely a team to look out for in the future. The problem with Westwood in comparison to Coppell DR is the lack of "national" success. The tournaments they've done best at - U of H and UT are considered more Texas-circuit, yes teams from out of state come, but most of the teams are from Texas. Coppell bid at Greenhill (one of the toughest tournaments of the season), and got 2nd at the Cal RR along with breaking at Emory. Westwood doesn't have those wins on their resume (I know they broke at Glenbrooks and Harvard but they didn't bid at either tournament). Yes, they won at the UT tournament against Coppell but in a round that really had no bearing on anything and Coppell reciprocated the favor at TFA which evens the Head-to-Head. Also on a stylistic note (having no real impact on my comparison), having judged both Westwood and Coppell, Coppell is just a level clearer than both BS though once BS goes off the blocks and on the flow, it's about even. 

Tbh, all of this is pretty fluid and arbitrary. Lack of Head-to-head makes a complete top 10 list near impossible. Some people might weigh the Triples loss at Cal for Coppell much higher than I did. Others might weigh Westwood's lack of bid list at "National" tournaments more than I did. Both are phenomenal teams, if I were competing next year, I'd be scared of hitting these two teams that have a very good chance of being in TFA finals next year.

Edited March 24, 2019 by elmeryang00

[rounreck 0]

1 hour ago, elmeryang00 said:

1. I agree that there is a lack of consistency but that's because of a large sample size and that issue plagues almost every team on this list sans Greenhill AE. Kinkaid has shown up for a lot of tournaments when it really matters and a Doubles loss at TFA shouldn't matter when Coppell DR dropped Triples at Berkeley. I'm a bit confused when you say Lexington wasn't a tournament - LASA, NoBro, Edgemont, Strath Haven, Georgetown Day are all TOC-qualled. 

2. You right, I got confused about the pairings, that's my bad. I've judged LRCH before, they're brutally effective on the LBL and definitely a team to look out for in the future. The problem with Westwood in comparison to Coppell DR is the lack of "national" success. The tournaments they've done best at - U of H and UT are considered more Texas-circuit, yes teams from out of state come, but most of the teams are from Texas. Coppell bid at Greenhill (one of the toughest tournaments of the season), and got 2nd at the Cal RR along with breaking at Emory. Westwood doesn't have those wins on their resume (I know they broke at Glenbrooks and Harvard but they didn't bid at either tournament). Yes, they won at the UT tournament against Coppell but in a round that really had no bearing on anything and Coppell reciprocated the favor at TFA which evens the Head-to-Head. Also on a stylistic note (having no real impact on my comparison), having judged both Westwood and Coppell, Coppell is just a level clearer than both BS though once BS goes off the blocks and on the flow, it's about even. 

Tbh, all of this is pretty fluid and arbitrary. Lack of Head-to-head makes a complete top 10 list near impossible. Some people might weigh the Triples loss at Cal for Coppell much higher than I did. Others might weigh Westwood's lack of bid list at "National" tournaments more than I did. Both are phenomenal teams, if I were competing next year, I'd be scared of hitting these two teams that have a very good chance of being in TFA finals next year.

This is so true - couldn't have put it better because almost every team on this list is amazing. I'm not the best at debate anyway so my analysis is pretty irrelevant LOL. 

Edited March 24, 2019 by rounreck

[HunterJordan 6]

On 3/23/2019 at 10:26 PM, elmeryang00 said:

1. I agree that there is a lack of consistency but that's because of a large sample size and that issue plagues almost every team on this list sans Greenhill AE. Kinkaid has shown up for a lot of tournaments when it really matters and a Doubles loss at TFA shouldn't matter when Coppell DR dropped Triples at Berkeley. I'm a bit confused when you say Lexington wasn't a tournament - LASA, NoBro, Edgemont, Strath Haven, Georgetown Day are all TOC-qualled. 

2. You right, I got confused about the pairings, that's my bad. I've judged LRCH before, they're brutally effective on the LBL and definitely a team to look out for in the future. The problem with Westwood in comparison to Coppell DR is the lack of "national" success. The tournaments they've done best at - U of H and UT are considered more Texas-circuit, yes teams from out of state come, but most of the teams are from Texas. Coppell bid at Greenhill (one of the toughest tournaments of the season), and got 2nd at the Cal RR along with breaking at Emory. Westwood doesn't have those wins on their resume (I know they broke at Glenbrooks and Harvard but they didn't bid at either tournament). Yes, they won at the UT tournament against Coppell but in a round that really had no bearing on anything and Coppell reciprocated the favor at TFA which evens the Head-to-Head. Also on a stylistic note (having no real impact on my comparison), having judged both Westwood and Coppell, Coppell is just a level clearer than both BS though once BS goes off the blocks and on the flow, it's about even. 

Tbh, all of this is pretty fluid and arbitrary. Lack of Head-to-head makes a complete top 10 list near impossible. Some people might weigh the Triples loss at Cal for Coppell much higher than I did. Others might weigh Westwood's lack of bid list at "National" tournaments more than I did. Both are phenomenal teams, if I were competing next year, I'd be scared of hitting these two teams that have a very good chance of being in TFA finals next year.

As usual, Elmer is right about the meta level issue, "this is pretty fluid and arbitrary." 

Yes, there's probably a very clear top ten teams. Organizing that list subjectively doesn't matter to me as much as objectively recognizing the great debaters/partnerships on said list. 

Maybe make a list of the teams that superseded expectations. 

[TestNav 2]

With the start of the 2019-2020 season, I think it is time to bring this thread back.

Who do y'all think are the best teams in Texas right now?

 

[DarcCyber123 0]

I heard 1/2 of Coppell RB will un-graduate to claim their throne 

[Thicccieee 6]

22 minutes ago, DarcCyber123 said:

I heard 1/2 of Coppell RB will un-graduate to claim their throne 

You mean reclaim... Coppell RB was a very threatening team. They won TFA (co-champed) against one of the best teams in the nation. Shreyas’s 2ars on Moten and Vishvak’s 2nrs on afropess were unbelievable. I thought they were both juniors but I guess Vishvak graduated lol. Hope Shreyas does well with his new partner. They both did phenomenal, even more so considering they were a public school

[ZidaoWang 48]

Mr. Muse will be prolific next year. 

[VishvakBandi 5]

we should just count homestead mw as a texas team

[DarcCyber123 0]

I heard a lot teams, however, got better at camp. Any actual predictions?

[Thicccieee 6]

I heard Het got really good at UTNIF this year. His 1ar in the finals of UTNIF was phenomenal though I have not had the pleasure of hearing his 2nr, though if his 2nrs are even half as good as Vishvak’s 2nrs on afropess he is probably bid level now. I’d say y’all need to watch out for Coppell DK next year. Het + Arnav = at least 2 bids. Shreyas is also a good debater to watch out for though I don’t know who will be his new partner since apparently Vishvak was a senior last year (maybe Het might be his new partner.... I could be wrong tho since he is the only 2n I’ve heard about from Coppell aside from Vishvak). I think the best team in Texas next year will be Highland Park MB (they will probably take EG’s throne). Muse is amazing and his partner, Vikas, is a great rising junior. I think he got a bid last year but not sure. Anyways those r just my 2 cents and would love to see what everyone else thinks

[VishvakBandi 5]

Grapevine is in 3 weeks don't you all have prep to be doing