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tommy949

Who's going to win CEDA this year?

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You are not likely to hit 8 K teams in a row tbh. CEDA even though having many K teams in out rounds, does have a number of policy or mix of policy-K teams. Like most peope will generally still hit FW and some policy arguments at some point. To paint CEDA as only and not just K leaning is a drastic mis representation.

 

So at Wake in like 2013-2014 I think like 11-13 policy teams held a meeting about starting an alternative organizations of policy tournaments that only certain schools could go too.

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If that's the case that many policy teams don't come to CEDA due to it being super K heavy, and many high level K teams (Vermont, Army, Liberty, Rutgers, etc.) come to the NDT, does that not make the NDT more diverse?

No because it drastically favors policy teams and is extremely difficult for K teams to do well there. The NDT is very much structured against hard left K teams. And it is very elitist compared to CEDA.

Edited by turls

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No because it drastically favors policy teams and is extremely difficult for K teams to do well there. The NDT is very much structured against hard left K teams. And it is very elitist compared to CEDA.

The NDT has had multiple teams in late Elims that are heavily K oriented such as Rutgers RS (Quarters and 5th in Copeland Rankings), Oklahoma CL (Semis, I think semis at CEDA), Emporia (Winners - Won CEDA), Harvard BoSu (Semis 2x and top 4 in Copeland 3 years in a row), Kansas BR (Finals - Only team in history to not get a 1st or 2nd round bid and make it to the finals), Oklahoma LM (Semis - Chris won CEDA the year before with RJ), Liberty (Octos - Finals at CEDA), Army (Octos - a top ranked CEDA team), Vermont (Doubles - who won CEDA), Michigan KM (Semis), Wake AS (Quarters), Berkeley MS (Octos), Loyola EM (Semis), WGA (Octas) and Towson (Octos). Most of these schools were in late breaks in the past 5 years with the exception of Loyola and WGA.

 

In comparison, there have been relatively few "traditional teams" sustain the same success in CEDA. If you look at the past few years, Oklahoma, Towson, Vermont, Liberty, UMKC have dominated over more relatively traditional teams like Kansas.

 

I do agree with that the NDT is a bit more elitist, but I think that empirics have proven that high level K teams can qualify to the NDT and make it very very far. I also think that the NDT judging pools have gotten more diverse which reduces a lot of the judge bias.

Edited by elmeryang00

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Sure like some of the top K teams go deep at NDT, but almost none of them have made it to finals let alone win it because the NDT is structurally favors policy teams even with more K leaning judges/teams. The NDT represents the strong hold of debate being an ol' white boys club. Just because K teams decided to go to the NDT and Policy teams don't go to CEDA does not make the NDT more diverse. First rounds are still very much determined by elite policy coaches.

 

Also Kansas BR got their bid at districts which comes before second rounds. They are definitely not the only non-first round to make it to finals.

 

Also just look at people's affs and negs at CEDA prelims vs NDT prelims, I think CEDA would be a better balance of K and policy teams than NDT in prelims.

Edited by turls

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Sure like some of the top K teams go deep at NDT, but almost none of them have made it to finals let alone win it because the NDT is structurally favors policy teams even with more K leaning judges/teams. The NDT represents the strong hold of debate being an ol' white boys club. Just because K teams decided to go to the NDT and Policy teams don't go to CEDA does not make the NDT more diverse. First rounds are still very much determined by elite policy coaches.

 

Also Kansas BR got their bid at districts which comes before second rounds. They are definitely not the only non-first round to make it to finals.

 

Also just look at people's affs and negs at CEDA prelims vs NDT prelims, I think CEDA would be a better balance of K and policy teams than NDT in prelims.

Can you explain how this is the case? I'm not trying to argue with you, just interested in what makes the NDT the way you describe it. 

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Yeah, like i pointed out elite policy coaches often times get more influence in determining both first rounds and second rounds. Like if you look at the first rounds post ESU winning, there is clear backlash against K teams getting fewer. There is also massive coaching staffs that get to flood the pool and forcely get placed in back of the room. Also since many top policy teams go to NDT there is a felt need to rep out. Those massive coaching staffs are also devasting because they can scoutt and prep out teams. Like UMKC AT got the kiss of death in elims being forced to debate two Kentucky teams back to back. Kentucky is big policy school and had all new answer in the second go around.

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Yeah, like i pointed out elite policy coaches often times get more influence in determining both first rounds and second rounds. Like if you look at the first rounds post ESU winning, there is clear backlash against K teams getting fewer. There is also massive coaching staffs that get to flood the pool and forcely get placed in back of the room. Also since many top policy teams go to NDT there is a felt need to rep out. Those massive coaching staffs are also devasting because they can scoutt and prep out teams. Like UMKC AT got the kiss of death in elims being forced to debate two Kentucky teams back to back. Kentucky is big policy school and had all new answer in the second go around.

What about teams such as Rutgers RS, Rutgers MN, and Towson JR? They all got first rounds recently and I'm sure others have gotten both 1st and 2nd rounds.

 

On the contrary, think that post-Emporia, there were more kritikal teams doing well. Oklahoma CL went 8-0 the year after the uniting of the crowns, beating white well coached schools like Georgetown and Northwestern, and made it to Semis. Similarly, Rutgers made it to Quarters that same year.

 

I think that your example of UMKC is a bracket and seeding problem, not necessarily an argument bias issue. There is no possible way that all the judges and white policy teams came together before prelims and were like "lets all strategically beat UMKC and get specific speaker points so that Kentucky can hit them twice." I don't think that just because Kentucky was prepared after their other team lost necessarily proves a argument bias in judging

 

To clarify - if you are arguing that NDT vs CEDA is a race based issue, then I do agree with you in regards to the NDT not having a particularly diverse judging or participant pool in late elims. I do think that you're characterization of the NDT as just an "ol White Boys Club" is very wrong and reductionist. White Traditional judges like Jon Paul and Dallas Perkins are not like "They didn't read the plan, I'm going to vote them down after the 1AC and conspire with my white elitist friends to block them from winning the NDT for the rest of the debate." I agree that a select few might, but the same can be said of certain judges from kritikal teams. This reminds me of a controversy at NSDA nats a few years back where a coach posted a paradigm that was like "I will vote you down if you read a plan" in response to some other coaches writing the direct opposite. That proves that a lot of your bias arguments are not solely applicable to white policy judges. 

 

However, what I am saying is that the NDT is more representative of the healing of the Policy v K divide based on the diverse participation in deep elims post-Emporia and even before based on argument types not race.

Edited by elmeryang00
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there is clear backlash against K teams

Like UMKC AT got the kiss of death in elims being forced to debate two Kentucky teams back to back. Kentucky is big policy school and had all new answer in the second go around.

 

or maybe umkc dropped b/c donnie and theo are good at debate?

 

this is super reductionist -

kentucky only brought five coaches to the ndt, umkc brought three including malgor - the coaching disparity really wasn't much

also, there were already multiple rounds of umkc out, so it's not like hitting gv in doubles magically made kentucky win octas

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After Octos, Kansas BB, Kansas FK are UNLV BO are all out so Quarters is exclusively Kritik leaning teams.

 

UCO HS is also out to Wake NW so UMKC is now my favorite to win. 

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Y'all also gotta remember that because of State laws pretty much every california (and i think a few other states) school can't go to ceda/NDT this year because of Anti-LGBT laws in Kansas which cuts down on a good amount of teams.

Edited by MrEragonSaph
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at CEDA CSU fullerton got around that rule by sending their team as independent; and USC sent a team but that's because they're private

also berkeley is still entered for the NDT, and stanford and USC are sending teams again because they're private

 

 

EDIT: also now realizing that most of the big public state schools that do debate (michigan state, iowa, minnesota, kansas system, UT system, oklahoma, georgia/georgia state, wyoming) are all in swing states or republican leaning areas which means that state laws won't have very much of an effect

 

Y'all also gotta remember that because of State laws pretty much every california (and i think a few other states) school can't go to ceda/NDT this year because of Anti-LGBT laws in Kansas which cuts down on a good amount of teams.

Edited by vmanAA738

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The reason most elite teams don't go to CEDA is that it's only a week before the NDT.

 

The reason CEDA is swamped with K/performance teams is for the above reason - they're probably not busy cutting tons of updates/doing lots of original research that hasn't already been done, so they have time to attend.

 

(This is not to say K teams don't work hard, because they obviously do, they just cut less cards than policy teams.)

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A couple questions:

 

1) Does anyone know what happened in the final round or have a link to video/livestream? I'm interested in seeing how more of these K vs K debates go down in college. 

 

2) Why does UMKC have a link on their aff wiki to the Facebook profile of a guy named Aaron Thomas who passed away? Is there a connection between that and the debater's last names being Aaron and Thomas?

 

edit: ignore the first question, found the video

Edited by Nonegfiat

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A couple questions:

 

1) Does anyone know what happened in the final round or have a link to video/livestream? I'm interested in seeing how more of these K vs K debates go down in college. 

 

2) Why does UMKC have a link on their aff wiki to the Facebook profile of a guy named Aaron Thomas who passed away? Is there a connection between that and the debater's last names being Aaron and Thomas?

 

edit: ignore the first question, found the video

those aren't their actual last names; Aaron Thomas was a UMKC debater who died in a car accident out of nowhere - they wanted to use the last CEDA to honor his memory so they entered w dif last names 

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those aren't their actual last names; Aaron Thomas was a UMKC debater who died in a car accident out of nowhere - they wanted to use the last CEDA to honor his memory so they entered w dif last names 

Meant to upvote sorry, also heres the link to the finals 

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Yay I was right! Rutgers won! I feel like umkc missed the boat on their aff! I really like Rutgers aff! Do any of you know what the judges voted on?

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