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PailAmbrose

vDebate Surveillance - PailAmbrose [a] vs. NativeWarlock [n]

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Happy its not backdoors.

1nc tonight

 

CX:

How are prison systems a form of domestic surveillance?

 

You'll defend hypothetical implementation of a plan whole round?

 

So we release all prisoners directly?

 

Are white murderers and rapists deviants of whiteness?

 

Why would releasing them justify complete abolition?

 

What does it mean to be human as per dehumanization claims?

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Happy its not backdoors.

1nc tonight

 

CX:

How are prison systems a form of domestic surveillance?

 

Prisoners are under 24/7 surveillance while in prison.

You'll defend hypothetical implementation of a plan whole round?

 

Yeah, I'll defend the plan. No condo aff here

So we release all prisoners directly?

 

Yeah

Are white murderers and rapists deviants of whiteness?

 

I'm not sure I understand the question, but white murders and rapists still possess whiteness.

Why would releasing them justify complete abolition?

 

Again, not sure I understand. Like are you asking why we need to abolish prisons when we can just release?

What does it mean to be human as per dehumanization claims?

 

To be "human" is to be a member of the species "Homo sapiens." All humans are fundamentally valuable, so dehumanization is removing that value in the eyes of the State

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Happy its not backdoors.

1nc tonight

CX:

How are prison systems a form of domestic surveillance?

 

Prisoners are under 24/7 surveillance while in prison.

 

You'll defend hypothetical implementation of a plan whole round?

 

Yeah, I'll defend the plan. No condo aff here

 

So we release all prisoners directly?

 

Yeah

 

Are white murderers and rapists deviants of whiteness?

 

I'm not sure I understand the question, but white murders and rapists still possess whiteness.

 

So if some prisoners are straight up white citizens who are completely normative/privileged, why release them back into society? Ie rich man who exploited his workers- why release him?

 

Why would releasing them justify complete abolition?

 

Again, not sure I understand. Like are you asking why we need to abolish prisons when we can just release?

Yea

 

What does it mean to be human as per dehumanization claims?

 

To be "human" is to be a member of the species "Homo sapiens." All humans are fundamentally valuable, so dehumanization is removing that value in the eyes of the State

 

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"Quote" is being weird so I just copy/pasted the question

 

So if some prisoners are straight up white citizens who are completely normative/privileged, why release them back into society? Ie rich man who exploited his workers- why release him?

 

Because the rich man is still a human being, and the State has no authority to make people die.

 

Why would releasing them justify complete abolition?
 
Again, not sure I understand. Like are you asking why we need to abolish prisons when we can just release?
Yea

 

Okay so to clarify, the plan is to end the use of the prison system, which would entail the release of prisoners and guards, and ceasing any federal funding for the prison industrial complex. So like we could just release the prisoners but then the guards and funding are pointless

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Final question- on rich man thing:

Where in the 1ac does it say prisons control who dies?

 

That's the nature of necropolitics. The point of prisons is to kill people, either physically (through neglect or abuse) or socially (through dehumanization and stigma)

Are prisons biopolitical or necropolitical?

 

A bit of both, but the focus of the aff is on the necropolitical side

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plz don't read lit from andrea smith

 

i think derek hilligoss explains this well:

"Update: I've noticed a odd uptake in reading Andrea Smith cards from teams (doubly so coming from decol teams) if you read a Smith card you get one warning. Next time I judge you I vote you down for it. Bad scholarship is bad and you should feel bad. If you don't know why it's bad

http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2015/07/17/cherokee-women-scholars-and-activists-statement-andrea-smith"

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plz don't read lit from andrea smith

 

i think derek hilligoss explains this well:

"Update: I've noticed a odd uptake in reading Andrea Smith cards from teams (doubly so coming from decol teams) if you read a Smith card you get one warning. Next time I judge you I vote you down for it. Bad scholarship is bad and you should feel bad. If you don't know why it's bad

http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2015/07/17/cherokee-women-scholars-and-activists-statement-andrea-smith"

 

you know, comments such as these ought to be saved after the round - you wouldn't stop a debate mid-round and tell the other team that they shouldn't read Andrea Smith cards in the middle of a debate, right? Respect vDebates as if they were debates at an actual tournament and save your comments for after the round - I have some things to say about this K, but I'll save them for after the round because some of the things I'll say can be used against this K 

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CX

 

What, in your mind, is the purpose of prisons?

 

Status of the CP and K?

 

Your crime and child molester evidence speaks of "incapacitating offenders” and your Wrobleski and Hess evidence would seem to imply that the death penalty is the best form of incapacitation, since “a murderer who is executed will kill no more”. Should we prioritize incapacitation or dignity?

 

How exactly will abolishing prisons hurt civil rights?

 

What is the link to the K?

 

Do you defend literal land return or just a pedagogy centered on land return?

 

There may be a follow up. Also, given your evidence editing in the 1NC, I presume you would prefer the term Native American?

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CX

 

What, in your mind, is the purpose of prisons?

Prolly to put offenders inside.

 

Status of the CP and K?

Condo

 

Your crime and child molester evidence speaks of "incapacitating offenders” and your Wrobleski and Hess evidence would seem to imply that the death penalty is the best form of incapacitation, since “a murderer who is executed will kill no more”. Should we prioritize incapacitation or dignity?

I don't understand, I feel like incapacitation would preserve dignity if thats what you're implying? Regardless I don't think the USfg should control who dies as part of the necropolitical regime- so I don't think letting it kill people preserves dignity I guess. Plus there's instances where death wouldn't be slow, ie botched toxin injections. Moreover exexution isnt the literally advocacy of the evidence as we dont cut off hands of theives or castrate rapists in the status quo

 

How exactly will abolishing prisons hurt civil rights?

Releasing individuals from prisons would inevitably make crime rates rocket- this would especially affect minorities or like smaller businesses held by poorer individuals who are more vulnerable- Hervert ev. Also children who can't defend themselves- parisi

 

What is the link to the K?

I isolated a few:

Smith: redeeming the state is impossible absent an analysis of the colonial formation of surveillance- we'd argue surveillance is a population issue rooted in antagonism rather than a political issue that banning prions could solve.

 

Greenwood: any education produced absent a land-centered education reifies colonial power structures, ie schools built on the frontier weren't neutral or accessible to all, rather an attempt to create a new form of citizen upon stolen land.

 

Hill: even if you think this is straight omission, it still turns claims of abolition as the most sinister prisons are left intact as per policing of reservations. Indigenous populations are the deviants from whiteness outside the walls of the prison, but where those regimes of guard and prisoner still manifest themselves, culminating in violence and land grabs, ie the desecration of Oak Flat. You disavow prisons only to the extent that they harm settler populations.

 

Finally Wilderson explains that the political imagination of your liberation still presumed a civil citizen for deviants to morph into- this subject declared "we are citizens" rather then "we are murderes"- this makes land ethics impossible and denies indigenous agency.

 

Do you defend literal land return or just a pedagogy centered on land return?

Malott indiates both are a good idea. I will defend the consequences of a literal land restorarion, but the consciousness created from those discussions are inevitably better than the colonial status quo as per land based consciousness.

 

There may be a follow up. Also, given your evidence editing in the 1NC, I presume you would prefer the term Native American?

Yes

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you know, comments such as these ought to be saved after the round - you wouldn't stop a debate mid-round and tell the other team that they shouldn't read Andrea Smith cards in the middle of a debate, right? Respect vDebates as if they were debates at an actual tournament and save your comments for after the round - I have some things to say about this K, but I'll save them for after the round because some of the things I'll say can be used against this K 

 

Don't listen to this, especially when you're dealing with quality of evidence. Sure, an observer wouldn't make random comments about evidence quality in the middle of the round, but if v-debates are designed to practice real debating to some extent (i.e., real/quality practice with set-col), then you better be damn sure that you're not reading ev from Andrea Smith.

 

I'll put my two cents in to this. I know the debate community, for a while at this point, has had a huge crackdown on people reading evidence from Andrea Smith. Especially when you're reading set-col, that this is a huge no-no - I don't care if you didn't know before, just stop doing it that will piss off a lot of people. It pissed me off when I read it, in the speech doc, and it pissed me off even more when people tried to delay the conversation/pretend it wasn't a big deal. Even after the effort people have put in to making sure that the community's choice of lit has been quality and not some bullshit like this. Smith is someone who established a career off lying to the Indigenous community about her sharing a common identity, sharing the same experiences, and sharing a legacy and life of pain as a colonized subject. She shared absolutely NONE of those things. In a set-col debate, people should have every right to call out crap like this. Especially when Smith is the best example of a colonizer in modern academia.

 

Good job for trying to hide a bad practice Pablo. I would say I understood your sentiment, but some things are simply too important to wait or be unsaid.

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Alright I'm nearly done with the 2AC but I'll be at a baseball game until around 5:00 CDT. I should be able to post when I get back

Sounds great, I should be able to do block all week

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Don't listen to this, especially when you're dealing with quality of evidence. Sure, an observer wouldn't make random comments about evidence quality in the middle of the round, but if v-debates are designed to practice real debating to some extent (i.e., real/quality practice with set-col), then you better be damn sure that you're not reading ev from Andrea Smith.

 

I'll put my two cents in to this. I know the debate community, for a while at this point, has had a huge crackdown on people reading evidence from Andrea Smith. Especially when you're reading set-col, that this is a huge no-no - I don't care if you didn't know before, just stop doing it that will piss off a lot of people. It pissed me off when I read it, in the speech doc, and it pissed me off even more when people tried to delay the conversation/pretend it wasn't a big deal. Even after the effort people have put in to making sure that the community's choice of lit has been quality and not some bullshit like this. Smith is someone who established a career off lying to the Indigenous community about her sharing a common identity, sharing the same experiences, and sharing a legacy and life of pain as a colonized subject. She shared absolutely NONE of those things. In a set-col debate, people should have every right to call out crap like this. Especially when Smith is the best example of a colonizer in modern academia.

 

Good job for trying to hide a bad practice Pablo. I would say I understood your sentiment, but some things are simply too important to wait or be unsaid.

 

Then whats the value of a vDebate? If, for example, a person decides to read a Deleuze and Guattari Affirmative on here and then the 1NC is just one-off framework; then someone comes in explaining to the negative how they should've read Ableism because they have this really good link card they cut 2 minutes ago about why DnG are ableist, would it be okay for the 2NC to just kick out of everything they read in the 1NC and read an entirely new argument in the 2NC? What, then, is the value of a 2AC? The entire neg block could just consist of the negative reading an entirely new critique, leaving the affirmative with only 5 minutes (and probably not a lot of new evidence) to respond to the new argument made in the 2NC. 

 

And - What is it with this straw man argumentation? I didn't say that we should never interrogate "bad practices" in debate but rather that you ought to wait until the round is over (and most of these vDebates never even end, most people forfeit because they don't feel like continuing the debate so then people just post their comments after a couple days) to say your comments. Unless the 1NC consisted of a shit ton of racial slurs against the 1AC, or something very problematic (for example, saying that Hitler was a visionary who was justified in his abhorrence of the Semitic people); then the judge's or observers ought not point out specific comments until the debate is over.

 

Also, I'm not sure there's much of a distinction between "real" and "practice" debates within vDebates - Although we do have way more prep time, these debates are reflective of what you would see in an actual debate round, although there's not much on the line (i.e. if you lose that doesn't mean you won't break because there's no tournament) they are still very "real" debates. You don't see people just randomly getting up and saying whatever they want to presidential candidates in the middle of presidential debates; and you certainly wouldn't want to do that during a debate. I don't care if you think that criticism of Andrea Smith ought to be something that needs to be pointed out the moment it's read, respect the debaters, the judges, and the debate itself; don't try to situate yourself as the special little snowflake that you think you are, debate's don't revolve around you or what you think is right or wrong when you're observing. If you think the criticism of Andrea Smith is something everyone should know, talk to the debaters after the round about why the shit that they do is wrong. 

Edited by Theparanoiacmachine
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Why is reading Andrea Smith considered bad practice, yet no one cares when people read Churchill, who did the same things that Andrea Smith is criticized for?

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