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Snarf

White Lady Pretending to be Black

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Rashad Evans et al. has some interesting viewpoints on this:

 

My thoughts on Rachel Dolezal? First, she would probably pass the one drop rule. Second, I am all for people being and becoming more Black.

...
If you decided to life your live as a Black man it wouldn't bother me. Rachel matters because she pulled this off. She also likely suffered some severe anti-blackness as a result. If you put you put yourself in that position it wouldn't bother me.

Would I accept you as a Black person? Like, you probably couldn't be one of my Black friends but you can be one of my non-black, non-white friends. There are Black people who can't be my Black friend though.

I mean, my terms for you would be the same as every other Black person: how fucking Black are you. You would never fool me, but I will give you credit, or sympathy, for fooling others. And, I definitely prefer that you think, act and feel Black rather that think, act and feel white. I believe that thinking, acting and feeling white is a choice.

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Rashad Evans et al. has some interesting viewpoints on this:

where did you read this? I'd enjoy reading the whole thing.

 

and honestly....I'm really struggling to differentiate Dolezal and trans* identity. Every argument that actually excludes Dolezal also excludes Jenner (e.g. you haven't been Black all your life, you're not 'authentically Black', you weren't 'born Black', you can switch back to your privileged status at will, etc). I haven't heard a single argument that resolves the distinction. 

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where did you read this? I'd enjoy reading the whole thing.

 

and honestly....I'm really struggling to differentiate Dolezal and trans* identity. Every argument that actually excludes Dolezal also excludes Jenner (e.g. you haven't been Black all your life, you're not 'authentically Black', you weren't 'born Black', you can switch back to your privileged status at will, etc). I haven't heard a single argument that resolves the distinction. 

It's on his Facebook wall.

He and members of the trans community got into it regarding his comparisons between Dolezal and Jenner, in which he said there was literally no distinction.

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Snarf, what's a good news website?

 

Al Jazeera, BBC, and NPR are my mainstays

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I'm not even addressing how fucked up Chaos' post is (mandatory counseling before coming out as trans*...? Wildly guessing about complete strangers internal environments?) but I think it proves the point that there are no trans friendly arguments that also reject being transracial. Dozelal shouldn't have lied, but that's specific to her rather than the concept of being transracial

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I'm not backtracking; I clarified that the concept of being transracial a transgender was more interesting than Jenner v Dozelal. This is a message board for Christ's sake - not so serious. The rest of your post is petty and has no chill. I don't know why you're so up in arms about posts on a message board. I'm not even gonna down vote you; lets just go back to talking about the concepts of transracial and transgender

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Really though?

And thanks for proving my point once more by not addressing a single specific counterargument I made to your accusation I support fucked up ideas. Once more: you are a sack of shit, learn to debate.

You accuse me of petty insults directed at you. I'm guilty of that. But you insulted me first, you stupid fucker.

Seriously, chill out before I give you warning points. Not kidding. That commentary is about me instead of my post, it's rude, and it's not helpful. I'm warning you publicly to chill. Edited by Snarf
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Seriously, chill out before I give you warning points. Not kidding. That commentary is about me instead of my post, it's rude, and it's not helpful. I'm warning you publicly to chill.

 

200_s.gif

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Mr. Evans also touched on the difference between Caitlyn and Dolezal:

 

 

I feel like Caitlyn Jenner is a better analogy that Iggie Azalea. In fact, the difference between Rachel and Iggie is *potentially* the difference between trans and drag. I certainly don't understand what's so offensive about the analogy. Caitlyn Jenner is not braver than Rachel for passing as a white man for over 60 years. Also, skin color is no more biological (or more clear) than sex. There is an implied authenticity to blackness (and not gender) that seems a bit offensive. If she thinks her brain is more black than white she indeed not much different that Caitlyn Jenner. Iggie Azalea is more like the third queen eliminated on drag race. I dunno.

 

1. Jenner is transparent about her origins, whereas this woman invented an imaginary father.

2. Transpeople have body disphoria, but I am skeptical wanna-be black people do. I think it's unlikely this woman experienced genuine anguish or self-hatred due to her skin's whiteness - although if she did, that seems to me more of an indictment of her beliefs than an underlying psychological problem.

Overall, I find the idea that Blackness is a way of living, being, or thinking to be silly and troublesome. Despite all this though, I don't have a problem if people who think it is real decide they want to identify as black, as long as they do so consistently, are forthright about their birth or childhood if asked, and don't get react with hostility if strangers misidentify their race.

That said, there is a danger in saying people can be whoever they want to be and not putting any restrictions on the idea. Transgender people deserve the opportunity to do so if they pass the prerequisite counseling sessions, but we shouldn't naively generalize from that one example.

1. Biologically, it's problematic. As one example, there are some mental illnesses that make people believe parts of their body are dead or dying and want those body parts to be amputated. Treating the underlying mental illness is much more appealing to me than treating the symptom by amputating people, even at their request. But if amputations were reversible, I guess I'd basically be okay with this. As a similar example, if someone believes they are Napolean Bonaparte, that's probably not a valid justification for society to give them get plastic surgery which alters their face.

2. People could misrepresent their histories, undermining social trust. To clarify, I'm not talking about misrepresenting history in the sense that if random strangers make assumptions about your past then you are immoral. I'm talking about misrepresenting history in the sense that if someone you interact with regularly makes an assumption about you, then proceeds to take important actions based on that assumption, you have an obligation to inform them of your past. So if you're made a community leader for black people, it is important that everyone knows you weren't raised black.

At the extreme, with future technology this undermining of social trust might even involve people impersonating others. Obviously that'd be a scary society to live in.

1) She didn't create an imaginary father. She said that she didn't feel her parents were actually her parents and instead that her real father was an actual black man.

Even if she did falsify her history, why is that bad? That's like forcing trans people to disclose the fact they were once a man/woman to be valid.

2) I don't understand why she can't have disphoria?

3) Your idea that changing your body is a mental illness has nothing to do with her wish to not be white and is probably also transphobic.

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Dozelal shouldn't have lied, but that's specific to her rather than the concept of being transracial

Why? Should transgender people always tell the truth about their past? Is that what they need to be validated as trans?

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Why? Should transgender people always tell the truth about their past? Is that what they need to be validated as trans?

That's a good question - I think your impulse is right that the situation is less simple than my post suggested. Dozelal specifically seems sketchy for lying because her conduct feels opportunistic, but honestly that's more a gut feeling than a developed thought.

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That's a good question - I think your impulse is right that the situation is less simple than my post suggested. Dozelal specifically seems sketchy for lying because her conduct feels opportunistic, but honestly that's more a gut feeling than a developed thought.

Caitlyn feels oppurtunistic, she's gonna get millions for coming out as trans.

^What happens when you trust your gut feeling.^

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Caitlyn feels oppurtunistic, she's gonna get millions for coming out as trans.

^What happens when you trust your gut feeling.^

Yeah, fair enough haha

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