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Level1Bulbasaur

Atalantis Aff thoughts

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Me and my partner are trying to start up a Aff case based on finding the lost city of Atlantis. Has anyone seen a case based on this yet, and does anyone have some cards already?

I thought it could be pretty good just on how obscure it is in general.

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There are a few posts that have some good sites to cut cards from on this site.

Also, what aspect are you trying to go for?

-Straight up policy Atlantis is real and has cool stuff?

-Or K fun of Searching for Atlantis gives us hope?

 

Also, spelling Atlantis right could maybe help ;)

 

Recommended reading/Watching:

Aquaman

Namor

Atlantis:The Lost Empire

The Little Mermaid

Edited by WhatIsT

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What kind of Affirmative are you hoping to run? While the literal concept of Atlantis is (quite frankly) ridiculous*, there exists some Critical ground for an Atlantis Affirmative--it could be something about identity politics and "finding" ourselves, a satirical take on American imperialism (just finding and claiming stuff that isn't ours), or a "hope " Aff, like Whatis T noted above. 

 

On a policy level (about literally finding Atlantis) you could claim archaeology and knowledge benefits, but there's some pretty well-established literature* that Atlantis is nothing but a myth. 

 

In any case, don't run this if you're in a lay district. The Aff will be a tough sell to lay judges, just by how absurd it sounds. 

 

 

*Unless, of course, you go with a Space Defense advantage. A Dr. Daniel Jackson (deceased and, through mysterious circumstances, un-deceased) has advocated around 2003 that the US Air Force should make efforts to find the Lost City of the Ancients. He claimed it would be the only way to stop the G'oauld Anubis. 

Edited by MarekIntan
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...... Dang you for that Stargate reference.

 

...my one-off T on any Atlantis Aff I hit will be a giant Stargate reference. Problem? :3 

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...my one-off T on any Atlantis Aff I hit will be a giant Stargate reference. Problem? :3 

Naw, it just made me laugh xD

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My partner and I are trying to start up a Aff case based on finding the lost city of Atlantis. Has anyone seen a case based on this yet, and does anyone have some cards already?

I thought it could be pretty good just on how obscure it is in general.

fixed.

 

I've hit a similar aff that talks about finding the lost city of R'lyeh. Maybe that's something to look into if you want to run an Atlantis aff.

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fixed.

 

I've hit a similar aff that talks about finding the lost city of R'lyeh. Maybe that's something to look into if you want to run an Atlantis aff.

Oooh, something fun would be to run an aff like this, but frame it sort of like the story 'A Colder War,' (http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/stories/colderwar.htm) and then have your impacts be wipeout. 

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Lovecraft is a racist and his stories are based off of the fear of the Other - don't read them (in a debate round)

 

It's unsurprising for his time period and general setting that he was a racist, though he was admittedly more racist than other Americans in a time of relative social change. Do we not utilize the literary and intellectual products made by anyone who had or has objectionable beliefs? That's pretty silly to me, honestly, and it's not a very good argument against whatever Lovecraftian positions might be read in debate rounds.

 

I doubt fearing others is always bad, or even a reason to reject someone in a debate round (at least not in the same way that using a slur against your opponent is).

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It's unsurprising for his time period and general setting that he was a racist, though he was admittedly more racist than other Americans in a time of relative social change. Do we not utilize the literary and intellectual products made by anyone who had or has objectionable beliefs? That's pretty silly to me, honestly, and it's not a very good argument against whatever Lovecraftian positions might be read in debate rounds.

 

I doubt fearing others is always bad, or even a reason to reject someone in a debate round (at least not in the same way that using a slur against your opponent is).

Theories ought not be rejected insofar they are not full with underlying prejudices.

 

Allow me to clarify, by other I meant people of afro-descent. He wrote on a poem called "on the creation of niggers" in which he outlined how the nigger was half beast and half man. He wrote extensively on how black people were the "vermin" of society - but I guess that's normal given his time, right? 

 

Have fun reading this in a round

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Theories ought not be rejected insofar they are not full with underlying prejudices.

 

Allow me to clarify, by other I meant people of afro-descent. He wrote on a poem called "on the creation of niggers" in which he outlined how the nigger was half beast and half man. He wrote extensively on how black people were the "vermin" of society - but I guess that's normal given his time, right? 

 

Have fun reading this in a round

.How exactly does his racist tendencies in a poem make the Cthulu mythos any less valuable? How does on determine when a whole theory becomes full of underlying prejudices?

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Theories ought not be rejected insofar they are not full with underlying prejudices.

 

Allow me to clarify, by other I meant people of afro-descent. He wrote on a poem called "on the creation of niggers" in which he outlined how the nigger was half beast and half man. He wrote extensively on how black people were the "vermin" of society - but I guess that's normal given his time, right? 

 

Have fun reading this in a round

 

I don't think you get what I'm saying - not everything he wrote is reducible to that poem, or any of his really racist shit that he believed. Yeah, he was the definition of elitist - he was only okay with marrying a Jewish woman because she was "well assimilated" into Western society - but "Your author wrote some other things that are racist" doesn't answer the arguments a Lovecraft aff is making. You'd have to make links based on what they read, or the implications of what they read, in the round. It's knee-jerk reactionary leftism (dare I call it Tumblresque?) to outright reject all of his really good literature because of other things he's done in his life; there are really tough questions that this poses: What's the brightline on how bad an author's other works are before the entirety of their work needs to be purged from academic discussion and debate? There's a lot of really cool secondary literature surrounding Lovecraftian horror - the speculative horror theory stuff I mentioned earlier, the work of Reza Negarestani is explicitly Lovecraft-influenced, and the like - but at what point do we say "This is too much like Lovecraft, and that guy was racist in the '10s and '20's!" Like...nah. I'm pretty sure it's easy to tell what parts of anything he's written are bad, and which parts aren't poisoned.

 

Jacob just now responded as I was writing this, but the questions he's asking are exactly the ones I'm trying to get at.

 

Understanding the background influences on authors is really good, but I'm not going to throw out anything written by people uncritical of (or even actively contributing to) their objectionable societies' norms and practices, that's just silly. Historical awareness is cool, but even cooler is recognizing these nuances and separating the obviously bad (e.g. the poem) from the not obviously bad, and probably innocuous (e.g. Cthulu stuff).

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I have specific evidence, which you can find with your basic google search, that explains how the "cosmic horror" that Lovecraft talks about is actually the "nigger" - My entire 1NC strat against Lovecraft is a Race K

 

Negarestani and those other Hyperstition authors stray away from that racism, that's fine.

 

Lovecraft, however, with his ideas of the unknown and non-existence - they were all based off of his fears of the "nigger" and his inability to understand how white life was equal to black life via the 1920's scientific findings that there was no scientific difference between white civil society and blacks 

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.How exactly does his racist tendencies in a poem make the Cthulu mythos any less valuable? How does on determine when a whole theory becomes full of underlying prejudices?

I'll concede that some theories are fine and some are not - best example is Heidegger, some of this theories are brilliant and have influenced many great authors, whereas others are clearly anti-semitic 

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Quick google search turned up both a race and a gender K

http://www.contrasoma.com/writing/lovecraft.html

 

Apparently some people wrote defenses of his philosophy though

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._P._Lovecraft#Race.2C_ethnicity.2C_and_class

 

Anyways, I'm going to go back to observing this play out

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I have specific evidence, which you can find with your basic google search, that explains how the "cosmic horror" that Lovecraft talks about is actually the "nigger" - My entire 1NC strat against Lovecraft is a Race K

 

Negarestani and those other Hyperstition authors stray away from that racism, that's fine.

 

Lovecraft, however, with his ideas of the unknown and non-existence - they were all based off of his fears of the "nigger" and his inability to understand how white life was equal to black life via the 1920's scientific findings that there was no scientific difference between white civil society and blacks 

I'm curious why  exactly secondary interpretations of his fictional writing must be the same as his own interpretation of what the story meant? Like in the case of this one a psychoanalytic encounter with the sublime is fundamentally different . How does one totally deem what a metaphor means to everyone?

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I'm curious why  exactly secondary interpretations of his fictional writing must be the same as his own interpretation of what the story meant? Like in the case of this one a psychoanalytic encounter with the sublime is fundamentally different . How does one totally deem what a metaphor means to everyone?

 

Not only that, but reading a literal Nazi in rounds is more acceptable than reading an anti-black (and frequently anti-white) racist? I just can't fathom why that makes sense - if all of Lovecraft's work is poisoned by his overt racism, why isn't all of Heidegger's work similarly poisoned by his racism? Is it just the ambiguity of whether or not Heidegger was "authentically" a Nazi, or is separating his work into "good" and "bad" acceptable (and doing the same for Lovecraft apparently not)?

Edited by dancon25

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Not only that, but reading a literal Nazi in rounds is more acceptable than reading an anti-black (and frequently anti-white) racist? I just can't fathom why that makes sense - if all of Lovecraft's work is poisoned by his overt racism, why isn't all of Heidegger's work similarly poisoned by his racism? Is it just the ambiguity of whether or not Heidegger was "authentically" a Nazi, or is separating his work into "good" and "bad" acceptable (and doing the same for Lovecraft apparently not)?

The good/bad dichotomy operates on a meta level for every author - it's really up to how you feel about said author, I cannot speak for everybody 

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.How exactly does his racist tendencies in a poem make the Cthulu mythos any less valuable? How does on determine when a whole theory becomes full of underlying prejudices?

In debate, we read gendered language K's against what people have said during a round. That's an 8 minute speech, probably at about 200 wpm, so lets chalk that up to 1600. words. The word "guys" is 1/1600, and therefore less than 1%. Yet, we still say it's a reason to reject. So, if you believe in this as a reason to reject, then you should also probably reject Lovecraft's work, especially since he is explicitly a racist throughout most of his works and has even commented about his fear of Cthulu representing his fear/hatred for the black body. I can probably dig up those comments from somewhere if you want, but, the tl;dr version of this is that Lovecraft=racist=bad=reject. 

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In debate, we read gendered language K's against what people have said during a round. That's an 8 minute speech, probably at about 200 wpm, so lets chalk that up to 1600. words. The word "guys" is 1/1600, and therefore less than 1%. Yet, we still say it's a reason to reject. So, if you believe in this as a reason to reject, then you should also probably reject Lovecraft's work, especially since he is explicitly a racist throughout most of his works and has even commented about his fear of Cthulu representing his fear/hatred for the black body. I can probably dig up those comments from somewhere if you want, but, the tl;dr version of this is that Lovecraft=racist=bad=reject. 

 

A critique of what someone said in a round is not equivalent to a critique of what other views that someone your authors cited believed sometime during their life. All of your offense relies upon the assumption that the 1ac's authors use the same analysis or metaphorical understandings that lovecraft believed.

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A critique of what someone said in a round is not equivalent to a critique of what other views that someone your authors cited believed sometime during their life. All of your offense relies upon the assumption that the 1ac's authors use the same analysis or metaphorical understandings that lovecraft believed.

So what about when people read a portion of Lovecraft's works in their 1AC's? Which is like a ton of the Cthulu affs. 

 

Edit: To the point where the entire point/central focus of the aff was written by someone who very obviously a racist I think it's a reason to reject b/c you're still talking about racist ideals even if they aren't your own. What you're saying would essentially be this response in terms of a gendered language K: "uh, we didn't mean the word guys like that". Just because you didn't mean it doesn't mean it didn't have that implication, but it's still pretty racist. But that's for a debate round to decide. 

Edited by CapitalismIsNotCool

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So what about when people read a portion of Lovecraft's works in their 1AC's? Which is like a ton of the Cthulu affs. 

is that portion of the story is racist? Anyone can have a racist interpretation of the cthulu , but you have to prove the 1ac's interpretation of the story is racist in of itself. lovecraft's interpretation of the story irrelevant to what the aff is doing.

Edited by MrEragonSaph

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is that portion of the story is racist? Anyone can have a racist interpretation of the cthulu , but you have to prove the 1ac's interpretation of the story is racist in of itself. lovecraft's interpretation of the story irrelevant to what the aff is doing.

The aff could no link any K by just saying "our interpretation isn't that bad thing you say it is". Your inter of debate would make it wayyyy too hard to get any links to anything. 

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