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LindaleDebateCoach

Protecting All of the Children in the Auditorium

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I honestly don't understand all the hate for LD debate, it looks pretty fun tbh and, had policy never been introduced to be me FIRST, then I prolly would have found LD at some point in my High School career (although the opportunities for LD debate in my area are zero).

 

I have always been interested in morality and philosophy, so a form of debate focused on those specific topics sounds very appealing to me

 

I'm actually interested in coaching kids on LD/Policy to take them all over the U.S. to major debate tournaments (again, my area is not so good for any type of debate, unless you're in college), once I start college. 

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This is definitely not LD debate hate. It's definitely hate for assholes in LD debate. that's an important distinction. 

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Well, it's also a challenge to make debate more inclusive and provides a stark reminder that our online communication is important.  What we tolerate is important as well.  The article is about specific LD events, but I'd imagine that the warrants are applied for every form of debate.

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I don't understand how you make the jump from anger over unethical practices and abuse of judge power in LD debate to racism/sexism. The fact that some black debaters or women were vilified for certain things they did in debates does not necessarily mean they were discriminated against. It's not like white/male students/coaches haven't also been vilified.

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I don't understand how you make the jump from anger over unethical practices and abuse of judge power in LD debate to racism/sexism. The fact that some black debaters or women were vilified for certain things they did in debates does not necessarily mean they were discriminated against. It's not like white/male students/coaches haven't also been vilified.

How about the fact that the debater in question was black and that was one of the notable things that people brought "into question"? Is that not racist? Read those comments on the websites, then you realize how sexist and racist people truly can be. 

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How about the fact that the debater in question was black and that was one of the notable things that people brought "into question"? Is that not racist? Read those comments on the websites, then you realize how sexist and racist people truly can be. 

Well yeah, that would probably be racist, but the article doesn't actually link to any articles/comments that say anything like that. From the examples I've actually seen myself (particularly the one about Rebecca Kuang winning Bronx and the TOC protest), both were about coaches abusing their power and ethics violations in-round. That just seems like anger over corruption in the community rather than blatant racism/misogyny.

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Well yeah, that would probably be racist, but the article doesn't actually link to any articles/comments that say anything like that. From the examples I've actually seen myself (particularly the one about Rebecca Kuang winning Bronx and the TOC protest), both were about coaches abusing their power and ethics violations in-round. That just seems like anger over corruption in the community rather than blatant racism/misogyny.

I'll grant you this, but I still think it's fundamentally racist and/or sexist when the majority of the disparaging comments are made against female debaters and/or debaters of color. 

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Debaters are going to be terrible because that's in their nature, because they are human teenagers. Specific coaches can exert some control, but almost all of those who would do so already are. Their solutions aren't going to be implemented widely enough among others to work. You can't get rid of pettiness or bullying just by writing an article about it. Talking achieves nothing, in cases such as this.

I disagree with their desire to police forums more also. Outright insults should be prevented, but anything else should be fair game. Refusing to allow students to discuss whether someone cheated seems dumb. Similarly, I don't want there to be a norm where coaches monitor the online behavior of students. Coaches can be jerks too, allowing them to monitor and control students' morality seems absolutely terrible. Let the students be free, even if they'll be jerks in their freedom it's still better than any alternatives.

They don't take into consideration the possibility that even these sentiments against bullying can be used as weapons to attack with. Mistake.

Edited by Chaos
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Debaters are going to be terrible because that's in their nature

This is an ignorant apology for the fact that debaters (and people) are taught to be racist. Nobody is born racist, and we shouldn't pretend that debaters aren't taught to be racist through the words and actions of their coaches and community. That appeal to "nature" is a tactic to foreclose possibilities for change, and in that sense is highly unethical.

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I was not talking about the potential racism but the bullying in general. However, I disagree with your claim that debaters are taught to be racist through the words and actions of their coaches. You don't have any evidence suggesting that. Debate is a small part of life, racist debaters probably had preexisting racist beliefs. Coaches won't have much success altering racist mindsets, regardless, because few debaters are explicitly racist and dealing with implicit racism is very hard even if you've identified it. Influence from family or peers is going to overwhelm the coach's efforts in 99% of cases.

Also, appeals to nature might foreclose conversations, but that doesn't automatically mean such appeals are incorrect or iunethical. There are some conversations which are misguided and contradict what is possible, and so should not continue. This isn't one of those conversations, but I disagree with the broadness of the claims you're making. If it were true that strong racism were inevitable, then talking about stopping it would be dumb.

I am neutral on whether people are born racist or not. Got any evidence supporting your assertion they aren't? Ethnocentrism is very common, after all.

Edited by Chaos

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This is an ignorant apology for the fact that debaters (and people) are taught to be racist. Nobody is born racist, and we shouldn't pretend that debaters aren't taught to be racist through the words and actions of their coaches and community. That appeal to "nature" is a tactic to foreclose possibilities for change, and in that sense is highly unethical.

 

How are they taught to be racist? If anything, given the massive support for black debaters (e.g. the CEDA 4 last year and Emporia SW 2 years ago) I would think the debate community is a lot less racist than most of the general population.

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How are they taught to be racist? If anything, given the massive support for black debaters (e.g. the CEDA 4 last year and Emporia SW 2 years ago) I would think the debate community is a lot less racist than most of the general population.

Assuming you're right, that's not really saying much given how racist society is.

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I don't understand why they  decided to throw in Round 7 in here, I don't think anyone actually believes dropping David Branse caused outrage because Varad's coach is black.  That's an absurd conclusion to draw.

90% of articles on LD websites are so 'politically' driven it's insane.

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How about the fact that the debater in question was black and that was one of the notable things that people brought "into question"? Is that not racist? Read those comments on the websites, then you realize how sexist and racist people truly can be. 

 

Which comments are you referring to? On that specific article, or elsewhere?

 

I don't understand why they  decided to throw in Round 7 in here, I don't think anyone actually believes dropping David Branse caused outrage because Varad's coach is black.  That's an absurd conclusion to draw.

90% of articles on LD websites are so 'politically' driven it's insane.

 

Seconded. Mr. Adler's comments at the bottom of the article (and his referenced back-and-forth with Mr. Alston) also seem to discount this.

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How are they taught to be racist? If anything, given the massive support for black debaters (e.g. the CEDA 4 last year and Emporia SW 2 years ago) I would think the debate community is a lot less racist than most of the general population.

There's a lot of literature that discusses it in better depth than can be addressed here. The simplest answer is the suggestion that Black debaters are cheaters, that they are innately rude or aggressive, that their arguments are incoherent or nonsense by nature, that their cultural expressions constitute irrationality per se, that their arguments do not deserve engagement, and that they are otherwise a threat to "the debate community" (which presumes 'the debate community' is role playing debaters, and that others are outsiders by definition). 

 

Debaters can be pretty callous when it comes to race and sex. I overheard a round where the aff was going against a Middle Eastern team that read orientalism and terror talk on the neg with regularity. The coach, at the end of the prep session, audibly told the debaters to "go beat the terrorists". Seriously. It's not clear if he was personally calling them terrorists or mocking their arguments as supporting terrorism, but either case is unacceptable. 

 

A cursory survey of the literature on racism in the debate community turns up these:

 

http://debate.uvm.edu/dcpdf/SRB%20-%20Ghetto%20Kids%20Gone%20Good.pdf

https://getd.libs.uga.edu/pdfs/reid-brinkley_shanara_r_200805_phd.pdf

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