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Hatter

The War Between Israel and Hamas

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I just want to see what peoples opinions are on the current war. Who is on the Moral High Ground/ Why?

Edited by Hatter

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Israel's goal is not to kill civilians, but to stop Hamas. Hamas forces it's people to stay in areas Israel warned they would bomb. Also Israel sends lots of food and supplies to Gaza, that Hamas takes and uses to build weapons and to build tunnels into Israel to carry out attacks.

 

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/article4157114.ece

Edited by thegreenemachine
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Following China's and Russia's leads.

 

Hey, anyone seen any reports on the number of civilian casualties over the last 20 days in Syria, Iraq, or Ukraine?  I firmly believe that Israel, which hasn't shot down a civilian airliner full of AIDS researchers, should certainly be subject to no more severe sanction than Russia for its actions in July 2014.

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Israel's goal is not to kill civilians, but to stop Hamas. Hamas forces it's people to stay in areas Israel warned they would bomb. Also Israel sends lots of food and supplies to Gaza, that Hamas takes and uses to build weapons and to build tunnels into Israel to carry out attacks.

 

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/article4157114.ece

Yeah- it's the civilians who are refusing to leave their homes when Israel says they're going to bomb them. It's not as if Israel has ever bombed the areas it tells civilians to take shelter.

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I just want to see what peoples opinions are on the current war. Who is on the Moral High Ground/ Why?

The moral high ground is reserved for 'murica

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I think Israel has acted as ethically as it can, considering it's situation. It has taken many precautions to limit civilian casualties. Even if there is one incident where it bombed a safe house, that's hard to avoid when militants are probably hiding there. Considering that Hamas militants are hiding among the populace while firing missiles at Israel there path of action is unfortunate but inevitable. It's also much better then how the Egyptians are responding. Also the level of caution and restraint surpasses that of any other party at war, probably ever, so I think there is no substantial ground for war crimes.

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But when it becomes clear that Hamas is using these tactics, then Israel should not be bombing.  Period.  Israel knows that whenever it fires a missile it will hit civilians.  So then why are they firing missiles?  Regardless of what Hamas is doing, civilian deaths are never justified.

 

And then what?  I assume you also don't contest the fact that Hamas is attempting to bomb Israeli civilians, just less effectively.  Granting immunity to militants who use human shields encourages the use of human shields.  This is why international law solidly holds that the use of human shields is a war crime, and that if an attack on a military target kills civilians being used by the target as human shields, the responsibility for those deaths is on the government that used human shields.  I recommend this article (which was also published in the Columbia Journal of International Law, but the PDF isn't available there): http://www.marshallcenter.org/mcpublicweb/mcdocs/files/college/hshlds-schmitt.pdf

 

The laws of war, like most laws, are designed to protect civilians as a system, not in each individual instance.

 

So how, in your system, does Hamas get held accountable for its acknowledged war crimes, which undisputedly include the use of civilian human shields, launching rockets from civilian buildings including schools and hospitals, launching rockets indiscriminately at civilian targets, and also at least one act of nuclear terrorism (launching a rocket at the Dimona nuclear facility--attacks on nuclear plants are considered by customary international law to be acts of nuclear terrorism)?

 

Edit: And Snarf (and other downvoters), I'd appreciate a reasoned explanation for why your and/or the world's ire is directed at Israel and not at Russia.

Edited by Edgehopper
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The remainder of your comment is so ridiculous and unsubstantiated (ex. "most restraint in war ever" - the Cold War had less civilian casualties and far greater stakes) that it does not merit comment. 

Now you're just being silly--the Cold War had fewer civilian casualties because it wasn't a war, but if you include the places it went hot (Vietnam, Afghanistan), then yeah, it had a lot more than a thousand civilian casualties.

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The victims are too poor and too brown for the US to care. 

 

Ridiculous. I had a friend play a social experiment game where he named random places that did (and did not) exist in the area, then claimed Israel bombed them to several zionist friends. Their ideological, ignorant response is much the same as yours - assert as fact that Hamas was hiding militants/weapons there. Even when the place did not exist, those Zionists would assert that Hamas hid weapons there. 

 

That knee jerk ideological reaction is the same one you just had.

 

That may prove that biased people are biased.  It doesn't prove that Hamas doesn't store weapons in and launch weapons from civilian areas including schools and hospitals.  On the contrary, the pictures and videos all over the place (this was just the first Google result I found: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/07/27/a-school-a-cemetery-a-babys-crib-the-disturbing-spots-where-hamas-is-allegedly-launching-rockets-and-storing-bombs/) prove that they do.

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By the way, speaking of poor brown people the US doesn't care about...can anyone tell me what war has caused the most civilian deaths since World War II without looking it up?  I certainly didn't know until it came up in a recent pro bono case I took--and it certainly received about a millionth the media attention that the Israel/Palestine conflict has.

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By the way, speaking of poor brown people the US doesn't care about...can anyone tell me what war has caused the most civilian deaths since World War II without looking it up?  I certainly didn't know until it came up in a recent pro bono case I took--and it certainly received about a millionth the media attention that the Israel/Palestine conflict has.

No idea why your metric is raw civilian casualties. If we're talking ratios, I'm gonna guess either 1982 Lebanon or the 1st Chechen war

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That may prove that biased people are biased. It doesn't prove that Hamas doesn't store weapons in and launch weapons from civilian areas including schools and hospitals. On the contrary, the pictures and videos all over the place (this was just the first Google result I found: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/07/27/a-school-a-cemetery-a-babys-crib-the-disturbing-spots-where-hamas-is-allegedly-launching-rockets-and-storing-bombs/) prove that they do.

Btw it's basic combat tactics. It's politically much harder for Israel to be like "we blew up that school full of kids because missiles may be there." That tends to piss people off. Next to the shiny armored us-funded military bunkers that Israel stores their nukes and cruise missiles, it's technically a very strategic place to put weapons. Sorry if that sounds cold, but it is a war

Edited by ARGogate

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That may prove that biased people are biased.  It doesn't prove that Hamas doesn't store weapons in and launch weapons from civilian areas including schools and hospitals.  On the contrary, the pictures and videos all over the place (this was just the first Google result I found: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/07/27/a-school-a-cemetery-a-babys-crib-the-disturbing-spots-where-hamas-is-allegedly-launching-rockets-and-storing-bombs/) prove that they do.

That article is all IDF tweets and propaganda...

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On such a contentious issue I found it doubtful anyone on this thread is going to convince someone on the other side.

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Btw it's basic combat tactics. It's politically much harder for Israel to be like "we blew up that school full of kids because missiles may be there." That tends to piss people off. Next to the shiny armored us-funded military bunkers that Israel stores their nukes and cruise missiles, it's technically a very strategic place to put weapons. Sorry if that sounds cold, but it is a war

It's also, for the reasons explained in that article, a war crime. There is no "underdog" rule in international law that says the Geneva Convention stops applying if you're the weaker party. No double standards allowed.

 

Zuul-

 

That article is all IDF tweets and propaganda...

There's nothing but propaganda on either side, broadly defined, but those pictures and video aren't fake--or do you have evidence they are?

 

And ARGogate, both guesses were wrong. Think poorer and browner. Also, whether you go by civilian or total deaths, it's still the deadliest conflict since WW2 if you don't include the non-conflict genocide of Mao's Great Leap Forward.

 

Miro:

 

On such a contentious issue I found it doubtful anyone on this thread is going to convince someone on the other side.

Probably true, but we're debaters--when has that ever stopped us?

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Damn, missed the boat on the war. Somehow that bothers me more than it should. Poorer and browner... So Africa? I'm fairly sure about my next guess but I'll ask anyways: did it happen in the last 20 years?

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