Policy Divided

[jobas 453]

Any opinions on the state of policy and how certain schools are excluded? For example, in Texas (where I am), if you're not a "circuit" team or a popular school, you're treated differently or even excluded at times. Any other places like this?

[CapitalismIsNotCool 919]

Any opinions on the state of policy and how certain schools are excluded? For example, in Texas (where I am), if you're not a "circuit" team or a popular school, you're treated differently or even excluded at times. Any other places like this?

Dude, everyone loves everyone in Oklahoma, we all in it together. 

[JosephOverman 1069]

What do you mean "excluded"? Most big and important tournaments don't stop anyone from entering (Except for team limits per school of course) 

[jobas 453]

What do you mean "excluded"? Most big and important tournaments don't stop anyone from entering (Except for team limits per school of course) 

I mean more along the lines of how we're treated by these "better" schools. There have been instances over the past year which have convinced me that debate is exclusionary from a standpoint of if you aren't one of the top teams, then you're automatically bad at debate and treated differently by teams who compete regularly on the circuit.

[dancon25 1264]

Get good and prove them wrong. It's a pretty sweet victory that way.

 

As a Texan - I'm not sure where Lindale is but I debated in Houston area tournaments - I don't think I met any "exclusion" per se, just that I didn't really know a lot of teams and schools since my partner and I were the first policy debaters in ~8 years coming from a school that does like 5 tournaments per year (not counting nationals or state tournaments), except for people that we went to camp with. That improved over time as you make friends, but otherwise everyone was either fairly friendly or just neutral to us. We did well at state this year but we were definitely not one of the "better" schools, for sure, and there are plenty of better debaters than us in the TFA. What kinds of things have you witnessed that seemed exclusionary?

[Zuul 666]

Just seems like normal function of social groups.  People know each other because they debate each other/go to camp with each other.  People tend to congregate around those who they know.  I wouldn't say its exclusionary

Edited May 3, 2014 by Zuul

[polyvore 145]

I mean more along the lines of how we're treated by these "better" schools. There have been instances over the past year which have convinced me that debate is exclusionary from a standpoint of if you aren't one of the top teams, then you're automatically bad at debate and treated differently by teams who compete regularly on the circuit.

again, you should probably clarify these incidents

[jobas 453]

Get good and prove them wrong. It's a pretty sweet victory that way.

 

As a Texan - I'm not sure where Lindale is but I debated in Houston area tournaments - I don't think I met any "exclusion" per se, just that I didn't really know a lot of teams and schools since my partner and I were the first policy debaters in ~8 years coming from a school that does like 5 tournaments per year (not counting nationals or state tournaments), except for people that we went to camp with. That improved over time as you make friends, but otherwise everyone was either fairly friendly or just neutral to us. We did well at state this year but we were definitely not one of the "better" schools, for sure, and there are plenty of better debaters than us in the TFA. What kinds of things have you witnessed that seemed exclusionary?

Not naming any teams, but at Plano East one of our teams broke and some kid (no idea who he even was) said, "Who in the hell is this Lindale team?" The next day they broke to semis (I think?), and the same kid said, "Who in the f is this Lindale team and why do they keep winning?" 

 

At TFA State, we were completely ignored by every team there and treated pretty poorly. The only teams that would really even communicate with us were Midway and Athens. 

 

I could name other times and/or go more in depth, but I feel like those instances are decent enough to get the idea. 

[SnarkosaurusRex 2831]

To me that isn't so much discrimination as 'who's the new kid?' It doesn't seem like I'll will necessarily, just, we don't know who they are and haven't seen them around before.

 

Foul language isn't always an insult. Keep in mind this is high school, where people drop the f bomb multiple times in sentences just because they can.

 

People naturally form their own social groups and so this kind of behavior is found often outside the debate tournament. I'm sure if someone new came in and set the curve on a test there'd be the same reaction.

[jobas 453]

To me that isn't so much discrimination as 'who's the new kid?' It doesn't seem like I'll will necessarily, just, we don't know who they are and haven't seen them around before.

 

Foul language isn't always an insult. Keep in mind this is high school, where people drop the f bomb multiple times in sentences just because they can.

 

People naturally form their own social groups and so this kind of behavior is found often outside the debate tournament. I'm sure if someone new came in and set the curve on a test there'd be the same reaction.

I agree w/ most of this except the fact that if you look at these groups that are formed; most are either A.) private schools, or B.) circuit schools w/ a ton of funding. I would argue that even though certain teams might be "new", doesn't mean that they should be treated like they're from another planet? Keep in mind, that when we've tried to just have conversations with certain teams, we've gotten one-word responses and/or the other team will just roll their eyes and walk the other direction. The context in which the foul language was used was definitely meant in an insulting way. It's that exact type of reaction that inspired me to seek knowledge about other areas where this could be a potential problem. 

 

Don't get me wrong, there are some circuit teams that have been really chill and accepted us, but they number very few. The general consensus on the circuit is that you're either good/popular/a regular on the circuit, or you don't belong in that debate space. And that's the problem I've encountered before.

Edited May 6, 2014 by aram

[Zuul 666]

,

Edited January 25, 2019 by Zuul

[jobas 453]

I think that although people might have been rude, they just don't know you.  The reason you see exclusion from these private and well funded schools is that they debate a lot on the circuit and thus meet a lot of people who also debate a lot on the circuit.  I don't know, i'm just trying to understand how this is different from literally ever other social situation.

Maybe it's not. It just seems like people are always making claims like, "debate is where anyone can have a voice" or "debate is about equality", but then exclude certain members.

 

Don't mistake this forum as a complaint. This a relatively unimportant issue, I just wanted some information. Definitely not trying to make a huge deal out of all of this.

[SnarkosaurusRex 2831]

Maybe it's not. It just seems like people are always making claims like, "debate is where anyone can have a voice" or "debate is about equality", but then exclude certain members.

 

Don't mistake this forum as a complaint. This a relatively unimportant issue, I just wanted some information. Definitely not trying to make a huge deal out of all of this.

The equality and voice statements are almost always made in the context of in round discourse. If people are dicks, then they're going to be a dick in how they react to you outside a round. The idea is that they can't be in a round and take away your right to speak.

[jobas 453]

The equality and voice statements are almost always made in the context of in round discourse. If people are dicks, then they're going to be a dick in how they react to you outside a round. The idea is that they can't be in a round and take away your right to speak.

It's still not a good excuse to be an ass about anything.

[freewayrickyross 110]

Beat them by exploiting what they take the most for granted: their privilege.

[SnarkosaurusRex 2831]

It's still not a good excuse to be an ass about anything.

No, but it's also not something you can do anything about, nor is it something exclusive to the debate community or necessarily caused by the debate community. Don't mistake my explanation for a defense of their actions--I'm simply trying to argue that it's not about a division in policy, but a basic division between any two social groups that would exist regardless.

[jobas 453]

No, but it's also not something you can do anything about, nor is it something exclusive to the debate community or necessarily caused by the debate community. Don't mistake my explanation for a defense of their actions--I'm simply trying to argue that it's not about a division in policy, but a basic division between any two social groups that would exist regardless.

I completely understand. Sure, this negative form of communication exists in every surrounding, but I'm still confused as to why a "new face" on the circuit is necessarily a bad thing, and why the automatic response to a new team is to treat them badly.

[SnarkosaurusRex 2831]

I guess they consider you outsiders. Doesn't make too much sense from my perspective because my team has next to no one.

[EHSCoach 32]

Dude, everyone loves everyone in Oklahoma, we all in it together. 

 

Haha, wow, OK must have changed since I debated there.