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Good article to read

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A better question is: Isn't expecting/demanding that other (black) people be 'authentically black' ontological violence?  Just because they were born with a particular skin color, why does that demand particular behavioral expression?  If it was a white person who was expressing those kinds of sentiments, they'd be regarded as racist, but because the people expressing the sentiment aren't white it's okay?

 

Whatever happened to judging people by the content of their character, not the color of their skin?

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What is this article trying to say...

I'm not quite sure. The passive academic voice makes it incomprehensible. With sentences like:

 

"The status as being at once both rooted in experience and available for appropriation marks nigga as the function by which diverse quotidian expressions and experiences are 'authenticated' as viable resistance to the dominant forms of power."

 

I don't know about "bad n*****s" but this certainly is atrocious English. And no, not as a black dialect, as an academic dialect.

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I'm not quite sure. The passive academic voice makes it incomprehensible. With sentences like:

 

"The status as being at once both rooted in experience and available for appropriation marks nigga as the function by which diverse quotidian expressions and experiences are 'authenticated' as viable resistance to the dominant forms of power."

 

I don't know about "bad n*****s" but this certainly is atrocious English. And no, not as a black dialect, as an academic dialect.

 

The sad part about that sentence is that it could be vastly improved with some simple punctuation and removal of unnecessary verbiage.  It wouldn't solve all the problems, but it would help.

 

"Its status, both rooted in experience and available for appropriation, marks nigga as a..." is vastly more readable.  

 

Beyond that, anyone writing to be understood would also excise 'diverse quotidian expressions' for something more comprehensible.  When the alternative to "quotidian" is one of "common" or "daily", using it is almost inexcusable unless you're trying to be incomprehensible. 

 

And I'm reasonably sure they mean 'viable resistance to power', not to 'the dominant forms of power'.  How do you resist the forms of power, rather than the power itself?  

 

Edit: And that's just one sentence!

Edited by Squirrelloid

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The sad part about that sentence is that it could be vastly improved with some simple punctuation and removal of unnecessary verbiage.  It wouldn't solve all the problems, but it would help.

 

"Its status, both rooted in experience and available for appropriation, marks nigga as a..." is vastly more readable.  

 

Beyond that, anyone writing to be understood would also excise 'diverse quotidian expressions' for something more comprehensible.  When the alternative to "quotidian" is one of "common" or "daily", using it is almost inexcusable unless you're trying to be incomprehensible. 

 

And I'm reasonably sure they mean 'viable resistance to power', not to 'the dominant forms of power'.  How do you resist the forms of power, rather than the power itself?  

 

Edit: And that's just one sentence!

Still too much passive voice and nominalization!

 

"Its status" - Pronoun missing a reference; what "Its" refers to is too late in the sentence to use this construction.

 

"rooted in experience and available for appropriation" - vague.

 

"... marks nigga as ..." - Vague contruction and bad subject and verb choice. The status marks the word as doing something? Better to say "the word does thing because of its status."

 

"as the function by which" - meaningless.

 

"are 'authenticated'" - passive voice. Who's doing the authenticating?

 

"viable" - unnecessary. The better word choice is either nothing or "effective."

 

My edit would be:

 

"The word 'nigga' 'authenticates' common expressions and experiences as effective resistance to power because it is rooted in a history of resistance and can be appropriated by the oppressed minority."

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A better question is: Isn't expecting/demanding that other (black) people be 'authentically black' ontological violence?  Just because they were born with a particular skin color, why does that demand particular behavioral expression?  If it was a white person who was expressing those kinds of sentiments, they'd be regarded as racist, but because the people expressing the sentiment aren't white it's okay?

 

Whatever happened to judging people by the content of their character, not the color of their skin?

You're white aren't you?

 

Because it creates a vehicle by which black people can resist white supremacy. Creating a certain coalitional standard for black bodies allows for a better resistance of white supremacy. Certain identity politics are already forced onto black bodies and certain politics are taken away from them as well. Becoming niggas allows for a site of resistance compared to a current model of appeasing white civil society.

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You're white aren't you?

 

-1 racism 

 

"The marvelous new militancy which has engulfed the Negro community must not lead us to a distrust of all white people, for many of our white brothers, as evidenced by their presence here today, have come to realize that their destiny is tied up with our destiny. And they have come to realize that their freedom is inextricably bound to our freedom.

We cannot walk alone." -MLKJr

 

Because it creates a vehicle by which black people can resist white supremacy. Creating a certain coalitional standard for black bodies allows for a better resistance of white supremacy. Certain identity politics are already forced onto black bodies and certain politics are taken away from them as well. Becoming niggas allows for a site of resistance compared to a current model of appeasing white civil society.

 

-1 false dichotomy.

 

Certain identity politics are forced onto black bodies... apparently by other black bodies. If that isn't ontological violence, the term is meaningless.  The power dynamics that lead to fostering that kind of mindset deserve to be seriously interrogated.  Who benefits from this ideology?  It certainly isn't the average black person.

 

It's like the Robber's Cave experiment, except instead of finding ways to have the groups work together, they decided to find ways to keep the groups apart instead.  This is not and cannot be the way to achieve The Dream.  This is only a road to segregation and violence unending.

 

"I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal."

I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia, the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.

I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

I have a dream today!

I have a dream that one day, down in Alabama, with its vicious racists, with its governor having his lips dripping with the words of "interposition" and "nullification" -- one day right there in Alabama little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers."

--MLKJr

 

I believe in The Dream.  Using racism to fight racism is a rejection of that dream.  And if believing in The Dream makes me white in some way that's more than just an incidental description of my skin color, there's something deeply wrong with your epistemology.

Edited by Squirrelloid
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-1 racism 

 

"The marvelous new militancy which has engulfed the Negro community must not lead us to a distrust of all white people, for many of our white brothers, as evidenced by their presence here today, have come to realize that their destiny is tied up with our destiny. And they have come to realize that their freedom is inextricably bound to our freedom.

We cannot walk alone." -MLKJr

 

 

-1 false dichotomy.

 

Certain identity politics are forced onto black bodies... apparently by other black bodies. If that isn't ontological violence, the term is meaningless.  The power dynamics that lead to fostering that kind of mindset deserve to be seriously interrogated.  Who benefits from this ideology?  It certainly isn't the average black person.

 

It's like the Robber's Cave experiment, except instead of finding ways to have the groups work together, they decided to find ways to keep the groups apart instead.  This is not and cannot be the way to achieve The Dream.  This is only a road to segregation and violence unending.

 

"I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal."

I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia, the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.

I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

I have a dream today!

I have a dream that one day, down in Alabama, with its vicious racists, with its governor having his lips dripping with the words of "interposition" and "nullification" -- one day right there in Alabama little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers."

--MLKJr

 

I believe in The Dream.  Using racism to fight racism is a rejection of that dream.  And if believing in The Dream makes me white in some way that's more than just an incidental description of my skin color, there's something deeply wrong with your epistemology.

 

1- No it's reflective in the fact that you think physical identity politics isn't important when it's just stupid to ignore the framing of the world

 

2- No identity politics are framed by white structures. From the founding of america to about the 1970s (that's an estimate), the black was the nigger- a stupid jive talking, animalistic piece of trash that was considered to be more akin to monkeys than that of actual human beings. From around the 1980s and later, it became more of the nigga. The thug who will most likely die or end up in jail because he is the evolution of the nigger into something worse. Both are a manifestation of white supremacist ideology; however, the dichotomy comes into play when other races have to act white in order to be formulated into the workings of modernity. Consider Rashid at CEDA when they almost had him arrested because he looked like he "didn't belong". This is the dichotomy of the house slave vs the field slave, and that's what the article refers to. House slaves try to appease the master as much as possible. While the creation of the nigga is the very field of resistance that pushes away white structures and burns down the masters home. MLK, Harriet Tubman, Huey, Malcom, people like that are the nigga in reference because they defy the master's rules and fight for their people. It's not a homogenous term, it's a solidarity one.. White culture and structures continually oppress the ability for black culture and structure to get along. This doesn't denote a lack of equality, rather a rejection of a homogenized epistemology of the entire world. Cool, the dreams nice everyone should hold hands and play nice with each other (although mississippi and georgia shouldn't exist as the US shouldn't exist, but that's another conversation entirely). The dream says nothing about creation of certain entities and how identities formulate politics. The Nigga is a necessary idea in order to resist white power. Niggas fight cops, niggas don't obey school rules, niggas spit in the face of white people

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And dis-identifying ourselves with our true identity is bullshit. The point shouldn't be "you're just like me, therefor I accept you." Fuck that. We're all different, and a mentality that says "we should treat each other like we're all the same" is white supremacy because it fundamentally ignores the identities of millions of bodies. You will never know truly how it feels to be black, I will never know truly how it feels to be a woman. That's fine. Don't start saying that we can only accept people because they have some reflection of yourself in them. That's what white people do. And to say that certain people shouldn't embrace their body just because if the shoe was on the oppressor's foot, it would be bad, so we shouldn't do it. Fuck that. I call you white because you're ignoring the fact that this is necessary because you can't understand from a position of privilege.  

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You really should go actually read the Robber's Cave experiment...

 

Because it [compelling black people to be authentically black] creates a vehicle by which black people can resist white supremacy. Creating a certain coalitional standard for black bodies allows for a better resistance of white supremacy.

 

And dis-identifying ourselves with our true identity is bullshit. The point shouldn't be "you're just like me, therefor I accept you." Fuck that. We're all different, and a mentality that says "we should treat each other like we're all the same" is white supremacy because it fundamentally ignores the identities of millions of bodies.

 
Doubleturn.  I'm not sure I'd go so far as saying demands for 'black authenticity' is white supremacy though.

But seriously, your race essentialism is the very embodiment of defining who people are based on a factor outside their control. You're compelling a particular identity on people, and using social coercion to ensure compliance.
 

You will never know truly how it feels to be black, I will never know truly how it feels to be a woman. That's fine. Don't start saying that we can only accept people because they have some reflection of yourself in them. That's what white people do. And to say that certain people shouldn't embrace their body just because if the shoe was on the oppressor's foot, it would be bad, so we shouldn't do it. Fuck that. I call you white because you're ignoring the fact that this is necessary because you can't understand from a position of privilege.

 
Don't put words in my mouth that I never said or intended.  My initial (and current) position is that everyone should choose who they want to be without being disparaged (within broad society-wide boundaries - there are universal behavioral standards that apply to everyone, like prohibitions on murder, rape, paedophilia, etc...).  Going after people for being 'inauthentically  black' is disparaging how they choose to be.
 
The ways in which we are different should also be self-chosen and natural, not artificially constructed to foster difference and establish group membership.  Robber's Cave is especially relevant here.
 

1- No it's reflective in the fact that you think physical identity politics isn't important when it's just stupid to ignore the framing of the world


King says physical identity shouldn't matter, and I find his Dream a lot healthier than yours. The only way to reach that world is to remove race - all race - from politics, and we can never do that by essentializing race.

 

I can see that you're unwilling to actually question who benefits from framing the world in the way you want to, though.  Not all power is 'white', and not all power is wielded by whites.  Why do your black elites want to keep you segregated and excluded from the halls of power?  That's the first question that springs to my mind here.
 

... however, the dichotomy comes into play when other races have to act white in order to be formulated into the workings of modernity.


I'm not a reviewer for an academic journal, so you can drop the pretentious jargon. Because either I misunderstand you, or what you just said is racist and offensive, and should be to anyone no matter what race they are.

What is 'acting white'? What is 'modernity'? Be specific and give examples.
 

The Nigga is a necessary idea in order to resist white power. Niggas fight cops, niggas don't obey school rules, niggas spit in the face of white people

 

I'm not sure how that 'resists white power'.  Destroying the educational opportunities of yourself and your peers is disrespectful of the teacher, who is trying to make a difference in your life and improve your future.  Its disrespectful of your peers, who are losing precious educational time while you act out.  And its disrespectful of your own future.  There may not be (and statistically, probably isn't - sadly) a white person in the room.  Education is power, so the only thing this kind of juvenile behavior resists is your own empowerment. 

 

When people like you advocate minority students ruin their educational opportunities, everyone should be appalled.  How do you possibly justify wanna-be-academics like you who are poisoning our students minds and destroying their best route to a better life?  You should be ashamed of yourself.  Go ruin your own life and stop ruining other people's with your ideal.  This is offensive, and no, its not because I'm white, it's because I have empathy for all the students who lose valuable classroom time daily in our failing inner-city schools due to student misbehavior.

Edited by Squirrelloid
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Great article. Grammar police commentary above is laughable though.

That's style police. The sentence is technically grammatically correct--just unreadable.

 

What, is unnecessarily confusing academic language another marker of black authenticity that white people aren't allowed to criticize? Because I know quite a few practicing black lawyers who would laugh in your face for that.

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You really should go actually read the Robber's Cave experiment...

 

I know what it is. Not that impressive. They worked together to solve problems. It doesn't answer where one group is systemically oppressed while the other is privileged.

 

Doubleturn.  I'm not sure I'd go so far as saying demands for 'black authenticity' is white supremacy though.

 

You don't understand the arguments- one is saying a unifying force to resist oppression, the other is a dis-identifying of the epistemology of other groups of people and the engagement as such 

But seriously, your race essentialism is the very embodiment of defining who people are based on a factor outside their control. You're compelling a particular identity on people, and using social coercion to ensure compliance.

 

It's stupid to deny that embodiment is necessary- you're the one who's saying that we shouldn't use our bodies to define out identities. Someone is black, cool, be proud. Don't act like we're all the same. I don't essentialize race, I recognize the intersectionality of it, but it's for a coalitional purpose in order to formulate proper responses to white supremacy. Not all blacks are the same obviously, but a strong anti-white society movement is more for a coalitional approach

 

Don't put words in my mouth that I never said or intended.  My initial (and current) position is that everyone should choose who they want to be without being disparaged (within broad society-wide boundaries - there are universal behavioral standards that apply to everyone, like prohibitions on murder, rape, paedophilia, etc...).  That includes going after people for being inauthentically black.

 

That's nice, but back here in the real world it's different. I get what you're saying, but the fact is- white civil society is racist and exclusionist, it picks certain populations out and oppresses them for it. It's the equivalent of being proud of who you are in order to resist the statements that you are worse than other bodies. The argument is a reactionary politics to the forces of sovereignty.

The ways in which we are different should also be self-chosen and natural, not artificially constructed to foster difference and establish group membership.  Robber's Cave is especially relevant here.

 

Yeah they should. But they're not. White power doesn't treat people equally so people empower themselves through their culture and identity- this does not say that some people have no relevance, just that we're different

King says physical identity shouldn't matter, and I find his Dream a lot healthier than yours.

 

​Congratulations, you can quote someone. The black panthers endorsed the fact that they were black in order to cause empowerment. White people try to put you down because you are not the aesthetic or the group they favor. So you endorse who you are to empower yourself. And also, where did MLK say- I shouldn't embrace the fact I'm black and neither should you? He openly identified himself as such.

 

And my dream is about ice cream, so yeah- his is healthier

 

 The only way to reach that world is to remove race - all race - from politics, and we can never do that by essentializing race.

 

Do you even realize how privileged of a statement that is? White people act like that's easy. Problem is, it's hard to just say- we should remove our own body in politics, when someone else is literally killing your people for it. Being black is important for people. Being gay or arab or a woman or hispanic is important to people because their ontology is rooted in that framing and to ignore it, is to ignore their identity, and that's fucked up.

I'm not a reviewer for an academic journal, so you can drop the pretentious jargon. Because either I misunderstand you, or what you just said is racist and offensive, and should be to anyone no matter what race they are.

 

What I'm saying is, under modern standards, white civil society standardizes behavior and identity and those who do not act white are considered the enemies of the state. Standardized identities are important because outside expressions are criticized. They are seen as violent or foreign and a threat to the people

What is 'acting white'? What is 'modernity'? Be specific and give examples.

 

Denying your culture, denying what you and your community act like, playing along with a game that fucks your people- Generally, being a house slave. 

Modernity is in reference to cultures and sovereignty as it has operated for the last 500 years, moreso in reference to the begininning of the european expansion into other territories.

 

I'm not sure how that 'resists white power'.  Destroying the educational opportunities of yourself and your peers is disrespectful of the teacher, who is trying to make a difference in your life and improve your future.  Its disrespectful of your peers, who are losing precious educational time while you act out.  And its disrespectful of your own future.  There may not be (and statistically, probably isn't - sadly) a white person in the room.  Education is power, so the only thing this kind of juvenile behavior resists is your own empowerment. 

 

What educational opportunities? Please go to a school and tell me what education is taught other than white, euro-centric knowledge. All the educational system does is create a standard for what it means to be authentic in the world.  The nigga is smart because he knows how to truly get power. The thug denies the lies his/her teacher tells him/her that the system will change to support him/her. The thug scares white people and that gives them power. They know that it is a war between white systems and non-white systems, so yes they have education. They know what white people have done and will do and they fight back. Niggas learn, they grow, and they resist. That's the point. I never said niggas ignore knowledge, they ignore the rules.

 

When people like you advocate minority students ruin their educational opportunities, everyone should be appalled.  How do you possibly justify wanna-be-academics like you who are poisoning our students minds and destroying their best route to a better life?  You should be ashamed of yourself.  Go ruin your own life and stop ruining other people's with your ideal.  This is offensive, and no, its not because I'm white, it's because I have empathy for all the students who lose valuable classroom time daily in our failing inner-city schools due to student misbehavior.

 

Do you go to an inner city school? Do the cops profile you for who you are? Do people think you're going to kill them? Do women think you are going to rape them? Does the government ignore the fact that your family lives on 7.25 an hour? Were your parents given crack in the 80s? Why the fuck should they trust white systems, and white education when white people have done nothing but fuck them?

I think you fail to understand some parts of the article. A black is not just authentic if they become a nigga, rather nigga authenticity is a vehicle by which many blacks acheive their own sense of authenticity, because the nigga is in direct opposition of white civil society

Edited by piemanrulezu
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Non-sequitur. You can agree with everything that article describes King as saying without endorsing thuggish anti-white violence (and if you have an MLK quote supporting thuggish anti-white violence as described by piemanrulezu, I'd love to see it). In this thread, we're not talking about affirmative action, we're talking about a version of "black authenticity" designed to destroy any hope of minority achievement or equality. At the point where the academic left starts defending race wars, they've lost their grip on reality, Edited by Edgehopper
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Non-sequitur. You can agree with everything that article describes King as saying without endorsing thuggish anti-white violence (and if you have an MLK quote supporting thuggish anti-white violence as described by piemanrulezu, I'd love to see it). In this thread, we're not talking about affirmative action, we're talking about a version of "black authenticity" designed to destroy any hope of minority achievement or equality. At the point where the academic left starts defending race wars, they've lost their grip on reality,

"lost their grip on reality" is not an inapt description here, but we disagree who that applies to. 

 

from the deployment of the "thug" trope to the "race wars" trope to the "threatened whites" trope, "lost grip on reality" is this post. 

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"lost their grip on reality" is not an inapt description here, but we disagree who that applies to. 

from the deployment of the "thug" trope to the "race wars" trope to the "threatened whites" trope, "lost grip on reality" is this post.

 

Give me a break, those are all direct quotes from piemanrulezu!

 

"The thug denies the lies his/her teacher tells him/her that the system will change to support him/her. The thug scares white people and that gives them power. They know that it is a war between white systems and non-white systems, so yes they have education."

 

"They know that it is a war between white systems and non-white systems, so yes they have education. They know what white people have done and will do and they fight back. Niggas learn, they grow, and they resist. "

 

"The Nigga is a necessary idea in order to resist white power. Niggas fight cops, niggas don't obey school rules, niggas spit in the face of white people."

 

I'm forced to conclude you're not actually fluent in English, but in academese, where a phrase like "The thug denies . . ." isn't a reference to thugs, "a war between white systems and non-white systems" isn't talking about war, "spit in the face of white people" isn't threatening white people, racism is tolerance, slavery is freedom, war is peace, and the only thing truly doubleplusungood are your enemies.

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Give me a break, those are all direct quotes from piemanrulezu!

 

"The thug denies the lies his/her teacher tells him/her that the system will change to support him/her. The thug scares white people and that gives them power. They know that it is a war between white systems and non-white systems, so yes they have education."

 

"They know that it is a war between white systems and non-white systems, so yes they have education. They know what white people have done and will do and they fight back. Niggas learn, they grow, and they resist. "

 

"The Nigga is a necessary idea in order to resist white power. Niggas fight cops, niggas don't obey school rules, niggas spit in the face of white people."

 

I'm forced to conclude you're not actually fluent in English, but in academese, where a phrase like "The thug denies . . ." isn't a reference to thugs, "a war between white systems and non-white systems" isn't talking about war, "spit in the face of white people" isn't threatening white people, racism is tolerance, slavery is freedom, war is peace, and the only thing truly doubleplusungood are your enemies.

I would blush if that weren't just completely misunderstanding

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rep_down.png Squirrelloid

 

surprise, mister Victim Complex believes in reverse racism

honestly you need to check your privilege, and i don't mean that ironically

you make so many posts on this site and have next to no understanding of what you're talking about outside your bubble where white people are victims and black people are thugs

Edited by georgebushsdogpaintings
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Edit - two posts between mine and the one I'm quoting. So @Edgehopper:

 

You're using the term "thug" differently. I know that because the post you're quoting describes "thugs" as Black bodies which "learn" to "resist" racism and "grow" in spite of it. 

 

You describe thugs as perpetrators of "anti-white violence". If you get "anti-white violence" from "learn, grow and resist", you should check your own racism. 

Edited by Snarf
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You're using the term "thug" differently. I know that because the post you're quoting describes "thugs" as Black bodies which "learn" to "resist" racism and "grow" in spite of it. 

 

You describe thugs as perpetrators of "anti-white violence". If you get "anti-white violence" from "learn, grow and resist", you should check your own racism.

 

I get "anti-white violence" from "fight the police, break the rules, spit in the faces of white people."

 

Call it part of my Jewish identity, but when someone rants about violence against people with my ethnic characteristics, I take them at their word. Or are black bodies the only ones that get to have identities and authenticity?

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"Call it part of my Jewish identity, but when someone rants about violence against people with my ethnic characteristics, I take them at their word. Or are black bodies the only ones that get to have identities and authenticity?"

 

Dude, that was so privileged it's not even funny. Only white people have had authenticity and recognized identities that were considered pure and good over modernity's run. The criticism is of white sovereign structures. Niggas is an attempt to grasp at something that gives legitimacy to black identities because *spoiler alert* white people have been massacaring them, gays, hispanics, women, natives for the last 500 years. Maybe we have a reason to violently tirade against white people. Have you ever considered that?

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