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Racist Shooting At Debate Tournament?

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You can separate race from the issue just like you can separate values from policies, discourse from plans and stripes from the zebra........

This claim about core, or entirety of the situation....what are you talking about. That makes about as much sense as separating the mind from the body......

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Whew...I'm glad we figured out our little academic community is so progressive we're immune to racism

 

Totalizing political discourse destroys the revolutionary potential of yadda yadda yadda, even when it's also sarcastic, Krishna 93, etc.

 

yep, and this guy got 41% of the vote b/c of Obama's coal policies...

 

I think you're trying to imply that many Virginians are racist, but that article doesn't do much to support it. There's clearly irrationality going on though.

 

I'm sure even Chaos would agree that there are elements of white privilege here.

 

Just noticed this, yes, I concede this, I've been trying to make similar concessions throughout this discussion.

 

I'm somewhat concerned about how you said "even Chaos" as though I'm some sort of example of someone who wouldn't like to make similar concessions.

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Just to be clear: this—

 

predominately white activity

 

is the problem that I believe needs to be addressed, although I certainly would expand the characterization of which demographic groups are predominant and which groups are underrepresented. I am one hundred percent on board with efforts that support diversity. For example, UDLs are the fucking shit, and I kick myself for not finding time to volunteer at their tournaments more than I do. I think college program directors should be more proactive about recruiting students from socioeconomically disadvantaged backgrounds. And if we want to do something radical, maybe major tournaments can implement something akin to the NFL's Rooney Rule and require that minority critics be fairly represented in the judging pool, especially in late outrounds. There's a million different conversations we can have that can produce ideas deserving of further exploration.

 

I do not, on the other hand, think it is nearly as productive to argue over whether so-and-so incident constitutes an act of racism. I get that there is value to pointing out instances of racism as a precursor for demanding reform. On a separate note, I even think there is TREMENDOUS value to pointing out that DD was the only black judge in the PF pool. But when the linkage of so-and-so incident and race is ambiguous to a point where the devolution of the discussion into uninformed speculation becomes inevitable, the discussion is no longer worthwhile because it doesn't actually do anything to promote the rectification of the overarching problem at hand.

 

That's all from me.

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"I do not, on the other hand, think it is nearly as productive to argue over whether so-and-so incident constitutes an act of racism. I get that there is value to pointing out instances of racism as a precursor for demanding reform. On a separate note, I even think there is TREMENDOUS value to pointing out that DD was the only black judge in the PF pool. But when the linkage of so-and-so incident and race is ambiguous to a point where the devolution of the discussion into uninformed speculation becomes inevitable, the discussion is no longer worthwhile because it doesn't actually do anything to promote the rectification of the overarching problem at hand.

 

 

Just your opinion. Where are your warrants? We all have our opinions on UDL's. Some good some bad. Volunteering for a UDL doesn't address the day to day decisions that occur in the activity.

Why is it not worthwhile? And to who? That alone is an opinion. I think it is very worthwhile. I think people need to reflect, not deflect. You are deflecting..

 

Here is what I am getting - Leaving racism in place and not pointing it out when it rears its head is better than pointing it out because it could reify it more? Not sure what that view gets you except more of the same old same old....

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Predominantly White Activity

 

 

Alright, I've got an issue with this one outright. Here in California, There are plenty of minority debaters. You'd be hard pressed to call it a predominantly white activity in this region. In fact-- if anything it's a predominantly Indian and Asian activity.

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Predominantly White Activity

 

 

Alright, I've got an issue with this one outright. Here in California, There are plenty of minority debaters. You'd be hard pressed to call it a predominantly white activity in this region. In fact-- if anything it's a predominantly Indian and Asian activity.

 

This is true for San Antonio debate too, and for many other small pockets around the country. But overall debate is overwhelmingly a white activity.

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Just your opinion. Where are your warrants? We all have our opinions on UDL's. Some good some bad. Volunteering for a UDL doesn't address the day to day decisions that occur in the activity.

Why is it not worthwhile? And to who? That alone is an opinion. I think it is very worthwhile. I think people need to reflect, not deflect. You are deflecting..

 

Here is what I am getting - Leaving racism in place and not pointing it out when it rears its head is better than pointing it out because it could reify it more? Not sure what that view gets you except more of the same old same old....

 

 

Here's the problem with that--I'm totally with you on pointing racism out when it rears its head. All i'm asking from you is A WARRANT (maybe i should define it for you because you don't seem to understand: a warrant is a reason to believe your claim is true) A warrant that racism has indeed reared its ugly head. Just because you say it doesn't make it so.

 

There's an element of proof missing here-- You say racism. We say where?. Then you accuse us of white privilege, and demand warrants for why this wasn't racism. None of the people here have asserted a positive claim that there was no racism. You are the only one asserting a positive claim of any kind--and so the burden of proof lies with you.

 

Without that, you're the one that reifies the harms of racism. Crying Wolf and making unsubstantiated claims about racism leads people who grew up with white privilege and read this thread to believe that race is no longer an issue and that SoonerDebate is ridiculous.

 

 

 

 

In theory, This isn't a debate, but you keep treating it like one. We've tried to have a discussion, but you reply to actual explanation of a complex position on a complex subject with:

 

This claim about core, or entirety of the situation....what are you talking about. That makes about as much sense as separating the mind from the body......

 

I've explained my position clearly. You want to claim racism? Provide a reason to believe you. I've told you i need more than "something unfair happened, and a minority was involved" Allowing THAT to be the basis for your conclusion is exactly how you reify the harms of real racism. It allows instances of real racism to be ignored because people assume that someone's Crying Wolf again.

 

 

You refuse to engage in a discussion--from your posts, it appears you aren't even reading anything over 3 sentences. You want this to be racism so badly that you're forcing it to be. Or maybe you just live in a really racist part of the country. Here in California, there is an extremely diverse set of debaters, judges, and coaches. People in the community are evaluated based on their skill as a debater/coach or their ability to render and objective decision as a judge. I literally don't have the time to consider the race of the judge as a factor when filling out the MJP for 3 teams even if I wanted to--it's far more relevant to read the text on the wiki. In all honesty, gender discrimination is probably a more relevant discussion.

 

 

Predominately White Activity

 

[my post above got cut off]

Alright, this is ridiculous. In my part of the country, there are PLENTY of minority teams, in fact the minority teams here in CA outnumber the white teams at most tournaments (this is my anecdotal observation).

 

Look at the elim bracket of the CA State Championship:

 

http://www.joyoftour...2/bracket14.htm

 

Of the 14 students in the bracket, 11 represented minority groups.

 

I'm not making the claim that race is not a factor in debate--but I could. I don't because I don't believe that's the case, but too bad we can't discuss the issue because some people feel the need to bring their dogma to the table.

 

 

You are either blinded by your rage, withholding sensitive relevant information, or you are the most epic troll in the history of Cross-X.

 

You can only do what you can to keep racism down in your region. I understand you might come from a backwards part of the country where there's still separate drinking fountains for us folks, but don't generalize that and assume everyone must understand why you're so upset. To anyone from CA that hears this, it's a coincidence and nothing more. Your rage seems to be directed at the general level of racism where you live in the country. I can't help you solve that--I don't live there. Only you can attempt to effect change in your own community.

 

I'm done.

 

You have exhausted my patience in this matter. Good day.

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Before we can go on..can you please define whiteness, white supremacy, anti-blackness (everyone is missing out here) and white privilege? No one asked you to show up and protect the community, but you chose to speak up, and if you are exhausted it is because you talk in circles. My warrants are the words above, and you can't really wikipedia them either. I don't have to look for racism in debate, its apparent at every national level tournament you attend. Study up....

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Predominately White Activity

 

[my post above got cut off]

Alright, this is ridiculous. In my part of the country, there are PLENTY of minority teams, in fact the minority teams here in CA outnumber the white teams at most tournaments (this is my anecdotal observation).

 

I'm glad to see that where you live, racism apparently doesn't exist and everyone's happy. But where I love, I'm literally one of four black debaters on my local circuit. I'm one of two to even make it to semifinals in a tournament. There's obviously a difference. I'm sure your anecdotal evidence is fantastic, but focusing on a limited portion of the country is useless when the nation as a whole. Also, is anyone else to the point where they're thinking it's time we switch from talking about debate as a white activity to an activity and begin to think white/indian/asian because while I do see a fair amount of Indians and Asians in competitive debate, I still observe a glaring lack of black people and hispanics. That said, whiteness is a problem still.

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Predominantly White Activity

 

Alright, I've got an issue with this one outright. Here in California, There are plenty of minority debaters. You'd be hard pressed to call it a predominantly white activity in this region. In fact-- if anything it's a predominantly Indian and Asian activity.

 

Although Indians and Asians are "minorities" in the United States, they aren't in the world, and though they've been historically subjected to race-based attacks, they do not compare to slavery and African colonialism. I, and you as well, likely, would be hard pressed to think of a circumstance in which members of these groups are routinely denounced as intellectually inferior, which is what the problem with black debaters in the policy debate community is, along with lack of cultural encouragement for educational pursuits. That's also not something that applies to Asians and Indians.

 

Therefore, I think this anecdote is not just an anecdote, but also one which doesn't speak to the heart of what it means for something to be populated by the privileged. In this circumstance, I think that Asian and Indian debaters are probably closer to white ones, and that there is at least somewhat of a reduced chance that a prominent Asian or Indian coach and judge's ballot would be overturned *were the issue to be one centered on race.*

 

 

 

"Asians are good at math and karate" just doesn't have the same perseverance/longevity and emotional sting as insults levied at "core" minority communities.

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If we're going to pit the legitimacy of minority struggles against each other, then the Native Americans definitely win. But maybe we shouldn't do that.

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If we're going to pit the legitimacy of minority struggles against each other, then the Native Americans definitely win. But maybe we shouldn't do that.

 

Hmm. Reading my post again, I realize it likely seems that I'm doing that, but my intention was certainly not to offend. The general point was a comparison of oppression and lack of legitimacy of certain groups within debate, which it seemed there was already more of a consensus on (and we also have a clearer perspective on), as Teja had talked about not being treated differently as an Indian.

 

Now that I think of it though, I can't think of any Native Americans in debate D:

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There are some here at Oklahoma and at other places I know of like Fullerton and I think NYU. But not many native american students in debate either. Which is still a product of debate being lodged in "whiteness".

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But not many native american students in debate either. Which is still a product of debate being lodged in "whiteness".

 

This is probably more because of past racism than current whiteness. There aren't many Native Americans in debate because they were pretty successfully genocided in the early to mid 1800s, so there aren't many Native Americans period (They make up about 0.9% of the population ).

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"The worst of this sorry bunch of semi-educated losers are those who seem to glory in being irritated by nouns becoming verbs. How dense and deaf to language development do you have to be? If you don’t like nouns becoming verbs, then for heaven’s sake avoid Shakespeare who made a doing-word out of a thing-word every chance he got. He TABLED the motion and CHAIRED the meeting in which nouns were made verbs."

 

Stephen Fry explains why you (or Calum Matheson) are wrong much more eloquently than I could

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There are some here at Oklahoma and at other places I know of like Fullerton and I think NYU. But not many native american students in debate either. Which is still a product of debate being lodged in "whiteness".

 

Alright, let's ignore the detractors and assume this plus everything else you've argued so far is correct. It's difficult to dispute whether or not white privilege is responsible for anything in the world, so let's use our context clues and just assume there is a large conspiratorial group out there doing everything it can to systematically keep women, minorities, and the GLBTQE community down. Let's even assume millions more are unknowingly part and parcel of that system.

 

From here on out, we'll just assume the worst possible perversion of dominance and hierarchy to be in place since we have decided evidence is less important that calling each other racist. Let's just agree it's out there, in here, pervades everything, and is the number 1 structural cause of all mischief and misfortune in the world.

 

Now what? What do we do? Where do we go from here? Instead of focusing on the construction of the Event and the persuasive iterations of it (a-la Burke), let's move on to the final stage of the pentad and decide how our agency can be used to change the underlying structures which make the Event inevitable.

 

Where do we go from here?

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this is right, we should do something about all the racists in the world... let's kill them, all of them

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I've been following this argument, and I feel like most of you guys are basically talking past each other. Yes, debate is a predominantly white activity. Yes, it is possible that the decision was overturned because the tab room was racist. Yes, it is wrong that the judge's decision was overturned on the word of two high schoolers. But, that doesn't mean racism. Every time something bad happens to somebody who isn't white, you can't just scream racism with no warrants.

 

Now this thread is about what Maury's last post was. What can we do, now that we realize that debate's predominantly white and possibly racist?

 

Discuss.

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I've been following this argument, and I feel like most of you guys are basically talking past each other. Yes, debate is a predominantly white activity. Yes, it is possible that the decision was overturned because the tab room was racist. Yes, it is wrong that the judge's decision was overturned on the word of two high schoolers. But, that doesn't mean racism. Every time something bad happens to somebody who isn't white, you can't just scream racism with no warrants.

 

Now this thread is about what Maury's last post was. What can we do, now that we realize that debate's predominantly white and possibly racist?

 

Discuss.

 

 

this is right, we should do something about all the racists in the world... let's kill them, all of them

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this is right, we should do something about all the racists in the world... let's kill them, all of them

 

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