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DCI Tournament Caps

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I was under the impression that DCI designated tournaments were meant to be open invitation to anyone who wants to go to said tournaments. The reason that I bring this up is because I am aware of at least two tournaments that have capped the number of entries in the division.

 

While I definitely agree with the merits of this post, especially that every team who wants to compete should be allowed to do so, I also believe that there there is such a thing as too big a tournament. For example, WaRu was gargantuan in comparison with other DCI bid tournaments with nearly 80 teams competing, and a great many teams with 6-0 and 5-1 records who could have very easily competed in quarter's when only the top 8 were selected. Having a large amount of teams competing limits the ability of some of the top tier teams to compete in outrounds, especially when WaRu, state, and KCKCC are the only tournaments with 6 prelim tournaments and KCKCC being the only tournament that breaks out to double- octas.

 

Anyways, just a few thoughts.

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While I definitely agree with the merits of this post, especially that every team who wants to compete should be allowed to do so, I also believe that there there is such a thing as too big a tournament. For example, WaRu was gargantuan in comparison with other DCI bid tournaments with nearly 80 teams competing, and a great many teams with 6-0 and 5-1 records who could have very easily competed in quarter's when only the top 8 were selected. Having a large amount of teams competing limits the ability of some of the top tier teams to compete in outrounds, especially when WaRu, state, and KCKCC are the only tournaments with 6 prelim tournaments and KCKCC being the only tournament that breaks out to double- octas.

 

 

 

Maybe Steve Dubois should use his DCI Pol-Cap to have tournaments with 72+ Teams break to double octas and bid at octas.

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The DCI bid committee places no restrictions on the nature of tournaments which conduct DCI invitationals. If we did, people would not agree to host them.

 

This year in particular, it was difficult to find schools which were willing to host these events. There was one particular weekend on which no team offered to host. We sent out an invitation to all schools which had been denied bid events on their host weekends; none of them were able to fill the gap.

 

In order to ensure that the students of Kansas would have the opportunity to earn a bid every week, a school stepped forward to fill the gap. This school agreed hosting their second invitational of the year, on a weekend on which their coach is unable to be there. In order to make the event possible, they have limited entries for each school. As a result of this, they are now apparently the target of student criticism in a thread on cross-x.com.

 

Which may, in part, explain why schools are unwilling to host DCI bid events.

 

 

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As a result of this, they are now apparently the target of student criticism in a thread on cross-x.com.

 

Which may, in part, explain why schools are unwilling to host DCI bid events.

Please read the first sentence of the original post.

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I did read it, and the polite tone of the post is the reason I replied to it.

 

I am attempting to explain why a number of readers may not receive this post in the spirit in which it is intended, and why it may in fact produce results that are not of the sort that the authors were looking for. I am also attempting to provide an explanation as to why at least one of the tournaments in question is limited entry; I trust that the explanation is satisfactory.

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I think that in theory there is nothing wrong with the ideas that the individuals are coming up with with regards to not having limits and such. However, the theory does not always work in practice. For the most part, as much as people don't want to hear it, and it isn't popular, sometimes you just have to assume there is a good reason why things are being done, and accept them. Way more than just a nice idea goes into hosting a tournament, with judging numbers and experience, administration restrictions, building limits, size of squad to generate workers, just to name a few. These are all issues that have to be thought of before final numbers for any division can be made. Even if 100 DCI quality teams could show up on a Friday and Saturday doesn't mean a school would have the room, specific judges, squad, and support to pull it off well. And we all know the "grief" that would come up if teams were not getting the judges they feel are adequate, or the tournament runs slow, or a host of other potential problems that come up when hosting any tournament, much less a large DCI bid tournment. Just because every tournament can't be as large and well run as Wichita East, or Washburn Rural (just to name a couple of the many large great tournaments run in Kansas every year) doesn't mean they are innately bad. Coaches do the best they can, with what they have to work with.

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The DCI bid committee places no restrictions on the nature of tournaments which conduct DCI invitationals. If we did, people would not agree to host them.

 

This year in particular, it was difficult to find schools which were willing to host these events. There was one particular weekend on which no team offered to host. We sent out an invitation to all schools which had been denied bid events on their host weekends; none of them were able to fill the gap.

 

In order to ensure that the students of Kansas would have the opportunity to earn a bid every week, a school stepped forward to fill the gap. This school agreed hosting their second invitational of the year, on a weekend on which their coach is unable to be there. In order to make the event possible, they have limited entries for each school. As a result of this, they are now apparently the target of student criticism in a thread on cross-x.com.

 

Which may, in part, explain why schools are unwilling to host DCI bid events.

 

I don't know which tournament you're talking about, but I'm pretty sure we aren't referencing the same ones. Our main concern is from a tournament that (1) is not hosting for their second time, (2) to my knowledge is also hosting open/JV and novice divisions, and (3) is on a weekend that in the past I am fairly certain Shawnee Mission East has asked to host the DCI tournament that week (I don't know if that was the case this year as well).

 

We are also aware that some schools are sending novices competing in varsity to fill up their entries while we were told that it was capped and we, as well as debaters from two other schools I have talked to, will have to be waitlisted.

 

We aren't asking this tournament close its novice division or to increase entry size to accommodate us. We are simply presenting a concern that may help in DCI selection next year and present our current frustration that is exacerbated by the lack of direct communication when we have emailed the host tournament's coach several times.

 

I think that in theory there is nothing wrong with the ideas that the individuals are coming up with with regards to not having limits and such. However, the theory does not always work in practice. For the most part, as much as people don't want to hear it, and it isn't popular, sometimes you just have to assume there is a good reason why things are being done, and accept them. Way more than just a nice idea goes into hosting a tournament, with judging numbers and experience, administration restrictions, building limits, size of squad to generate workers, just to name a few. These are all issues that have to be thought of before final numbers for any division can be made. Even if 100 DCI quality teams could show up on a Friday and Saturday doesn't mean a school would have the room, specific judges, squad, and support to pull it off well. And we all know the "grief" that would come up if teams were not getting the judges they feel are adequate, or the tournament runs slow, or a host of other potential problems that come up when hosting any tournament, much less a large DCI bid tournment. Just because every tournament can't be as large and well run as Wichita East, or Washburn Rural (just to name a couple of the many large great tournaments run in Kansas every year) doesn't mean they are innately bad. Coaches do the best they can, with what they have to work with.

 

Sure, judging numbers/experience, restrictions, building limits, and squad sizes may be factors that prevent large tournaments. That is not the concern. The problem is that the number is getting capped off at the DCI division instead of making an accommodation by, for example, not hosting a novice tournament that week. While there are multiple novice, JV, and open tournaments every week, there is only one varsity DCI tournament and it would probably be fairer to make it open invitation until those restrictions cannot be bypassed any other way than to cap the entry level.

 

While I definitely agree with the merits of this post, especially that every team who wants to compete should be allowed to do so, I also believe that there there is such a thing as too big a tournament. For example, WaRu was gargantuan in comparison with other DCI bid tournaments with nearly 80 teams competing, and a great many teams with 6-0 and 5-1 records who could have very easily competed in quarter's when only the top 8 were selected. Having a large amount of teams competing limits the ability of some of the top tier teams to compete in outrounds, especially when WaRu, state, and KCKCC are the only tournaments with 6 prelim tournaments and KCKCC being the only tournament that breaks out to double- octas.

 

This has a valid premise, but I disagree. The tournaments that we are referencing are not near 80 or 70+ entries in the first place.

 

Also, DCI was formed to host a tournament between the top teams in Kansas. This is probably skewed if tournaments are capping off entry levels and the justification for it is to allow teams to qualify or debate in outrounds who normally wouldn’t be able to debate in outrounds of a tournament like WaRu with 80 teams competing. That said, even with the larger entries, Mr. DuBois has calculated that more bids have been offered thus far this year as a result of larger tournaments. If anything, it would allow more teams to participate. From personal experience, most rounds at DCI, in terms of judging and competition, have been like the outrounds at tournaments like WaRu or Wichita East. I don't think there is a problem with "too biig a tournament" restricting top tier teams from debating in outrounds.

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I typically do not reply to threads on cross-x, but I feel that there needs to be something said from a coach who hosted a DCI tournament this year for the first time, and who had a cap on the total number of teams in the building, but not in the divisions.

 

First, If you are going to call a school out by name, which is a terrible idea for a plentitude of reasons, at least make an effort to spell the schools name correctly. You may at some point in your debate career have a representative, judge or coach from that school in the back of your room and things that you have stated in the past may come back to haunt you. Words and impressions do matter regardless of other considerations. FYI, it's El Dorado.

 

Second, perhaps it is not wise to assume that what you perceive to be true about a tournament is the only correct possibility. For instance, our building can only accommodate 100 teams comfortably. Of course, we can create rooms or use spaces that are not optimal; however, out of consideration for the debaters we chose not to resort to constructing these alternate rooms and placing a cap on the total number of teams. This did not place a cap on the DCI division. We ended up having 42ish DCI teams after registration and drops. We easily could have pushed to accommodate the magic number of 48, even while hosting two other divisions. To my knowledge offering the other divisions did not hamper the ability of team to enter the tournament in the DCI division, or load the division up as they saw fit.

 

Third, We chose not to actively recruit teams to fill-in the additional DCI spaces. I do not believe that begging schools to shove any team possible into the DCI division creates a truly competitive environment that is representative of the best that Kansas has to offer, which is what the DCI division should be composed of. Just shoving any team, even novices, into the DCI division dilutes the competitiveness and, in my opinion, takes away from what makes that division special. (I know that when I was in high school, it was much more difficult to be one of the 20 teams that got to attend and compete at DCI, and I do not necessarily feel that the top 16 spots at a tournament that had to dilute the pool in DCI are going to be full of teams that will be highly competitive in the end at DCI.) I want to make it clear that I am not indicting tournaments that chose to recruit to reach that number, that was their choice and I still think the world of those teams and coaches.) I do think that if we as a community continue to obsess over the magic 48 number and load divisions up, we are going to dilute the pool at the DCI tournament to the point where something is going to have to change and the qualifications for reaching that pinnacle may have to be made steeper. A lot of the prior posts also are operating under the assumption that there were large quantities of DCI quality teams beating down the doors of these tournament to get in, and while in some instances this may be true, in others it is most certainly not the case. We also did not turn anyone away from our tournament in the end, and could have easily accommodated some additional entries.

 

Fourth, To some extent all tournament have a cap or natural cap that is instilled when they choose to limit the overall number of teams that may attend. Let's be honest, there is only so much available space, even in buildings as large at Wichita East and Washburn Rural. They still give you a total number of teams that you can bring, and have a waiting list to get into the tournament or to get extras. The same was true of our DCI tournament. I think the argument that a DCI division should be unlimited can be warranted; however, the natural imposition of 4, 6 or 9 team limits automatically creates caps that you will not be able to get around in the long run.

 

Fifth, part of the reason we choose to apply for a DCI bid was to help ensure that all regions/schools in the state get an opportunity to share in the hosting of DCI tournament and to make sure that there exists a fair division of competition in all regions. It would put schools in our area at a competitive disadvantage if all of the tournaments were in the Eastern area of the state. We do travel as much as we are able, and I feel that the bid process helps to ensure that there really isn't a true inequity in competition. To that extent, it also makes hosting desirable since you do not have to go out of your way to change everything about how you host your tournament. I also feel as though this distinction in regional styles/tournament styles truly divides the good teams from the great by distinguishing those who adapt.

 

Sixth, For some schools simply hosting a DCI only tournament is not an option. We also have schools that attend our tournament regularly and do so because we offer three divisions. If we were to limit the tournament to a single division, some of our usual attendees would more likely than not limit their entries or not attend at all. Which would affect not only the quality of our tournament, but also the turnout regardless of the DCI only division tag. Also, because we would like as many schools as possible to have the opportunity to attend our tournament, we limit a schools entry to 4 teams maximum.

 

Finally, 14-18 year olds pontificating about what is best for the community, presuming they know better than reputable coaches who have been in the community for years is to some extent worrisome. If a coach makes a decision, they should respect that decision and presume its for the betterment of the community. All communities go through ups/down, changes, etc, and coaches are the best check to what is best in the timeline of a community to preserve its competitive abilities.

 

Hagaman

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I am not sure which schools are in question but El Dorado hosted a fine tournament. When you are a coach then you can decide the divisions you offer. The dci selection committee was well aware (I think) of the divisions offered. The tournament host is the one who gets to decide how their tournament is run. If there is some problem then don't come, I am sure others want the spot.

 

I am not even sure if this in reference to Newton's tournament but just in case it is. We are full. Rooms limit us. We are not a 6A school and once the rooms that are off limits to us are counted we have less than 50...way less. I do not put caps on divisions, just total entries. The only reason schools are on the waiting list is due to tardiness in responding. We fill up in 12 hours...as usual. As room comes available then I will allow schools from the wait list in but sorry I cannot create rooms out of thin air.

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Like Megan, I rarely reply to things that happen on this website. Often I find it to be unproductive; and, much like talking to a class of public speaking students on a Friday afternoon, is often tantamount to trying to reason with a 2 year old...people just don't care about logic and reason.

 

I wrote a post that was eerily similar to Megan's last night, but chose not to post it. The reason I've chosen to post here, finally, is because "Juh"'s comments are inflammatory and offensive. Sadly, I believe that they illustrate the same sentiment echoed in earlier supporters of this "Open Letter to the DCI Committee" or whatever BVW BS would like to call their "non confrontational, non argument seeking diatribe"...though clearly in a less professional and reasonable way.

 

The reality is that I think that there are two things that those of you who believe that regional diversity/varied tournament locations are problematic to the "true test of what the DCI tournament should be" just don't care about.

 

1) Regional Diversity in DCI Tournaments is valuable and important:

 

A) I don't think that you care about schools that don't reside anywhere except your portion of the state. I wish I was wrong here...but the annually CX.com posted evidence which indicates otherwise is simply too overwhelming to ignore. The best part about debate in this state is the sheer volume of students and coaches who compete in the activity. It's sad and troubling to me that you think there should be a Kansas City State Tournament... ignoring the other 500 or so miles of the state to the West.

 

B)A large portion of schools in the state of Kansas (dare I say, the majority)are never able to attend a single overnight tournament in a season. A large number are able to attend 1...the KSHSAA state tournament for their respective classification (because their schools pay for it). Others operate on limited budgets which might afford them the opportunity to travel a time or two per season. They simply cannot access tournaments away from home. Regional diversity doesn't solve this problem, though I wish it could, but it does reduce it.

 

C) You want to debate the best teams in the state at DCI, that means that the best teams have to have had a chance to qualify.

 

Without a regional diversity in DCI tournament locations, literally there are schools who would never be able to go to a single DCI tournament. If that's what you want for the DCI, then I'd say not only are you in the minority, but more importantly and bluntly, perhaps you should start your own tournament. You could call it the DSI. Determine the qualifiers based on your Twitter followers and Facebook friends. I don't know where you'll host it, as I don't see a lot of schools offering to let some students host a tournament in their schools without some coach oversight, but you'll find somewhere. Probably somebody will fork over tons of time and money to allow you to have big nice trophies and medals. Surely a group of competitive and driven high school students will have no problems operating their own tournament...should be fine. Until this happens - let the debate coaches run the Debate Coaches' Invitational...please?

 

2) You ignore and slap in the face the work that the coaches, specifically and most notably (and most importantly) the DCI Committee, VOLUNTEER to do to make this tournament a reality.

 

The committee values regional diversity in DCI bid tournaments, they do the work to find applicants, they get to choose where they're hosted. Something you probably don't know is that they actually ask host schools how many teams they can/will accommodate and what divisions they'll offer...it's not like they're in the dark on these questions. Why do tournaments get selected as they do?, primarily because no one else will volunteer to host them.

 

Every year the committee gets bashed on for accepting certain schools as DCI tournament locations...and every year they're stuck back with the same choices. At some point the DCI committee is going to decide they're tired of being the brunt of your whining and complaining, and they'll just quit doing the DCI. The problem with that? I can count on zero fingers the number of people regularly volunteering to take over the work that they volunteer to do. The committee (and many other coaches) love the DCI because it pits the best teams in the state against each other. But that love can only go so far. The simple solution to getting more desirable tournaments (in your opinion) as DCI tournaments is to find a way to convince other schools to apply for bids:

 

Every year we get to hear about SME getting slighted in favor of Newton. We're tired of this tune. The simple solutions are:

 

a) Convince SME to change the date of their tournament. (Which, I believe they've been asked to do and have chosen not to...I don't blame them...I think that's their choice.)

B) Convince other schools West of Topeka to apply for DCI bids on other weekends to counterbalance the weekend you HAVE to have SME get a bid tournament designation.

c) Don't go to Newton.

d) Help make judging at those tournaments more like what you'd like to see (probably). Show up and judge when you graduate, and encourage your graduated friends to do the same.

 

Subpoint B is really the issue here. And one that you yourself can help address! A primary reason that schools don't apply for DCI tournaments regularly is because they know that whatever they do will never be good enough for all of you. Coaches who host tournaments don't deserve (and don't want) to be ragged on by a bunch of high school kids for how inferior their tournaments are. The solution? Don't be a DCI tournament.

 

If your argument is literally "We can't qualify for the DCI because one tournament (out of roughly 15, including national qualifying tournaments) got capped before we were able to get entered...", then I really think you need to reevaluate your position." Including the "NFL Weekend" there are 12 weekends of the invitational debate season. Those students assuming they're going to DCI can only travel on 7 of those weekends. The math seems to make sense to me that you'd be able to fill that void some other weekend...and probably just across town where you don't have to stay in the "Red Roach"...

 

I'm not going to spend time responding to claims like "DCI tournaments must take all entries" and "they shouldn't get to host other divisions"...as I believe the "building size" workability argument (Mr. Bill makes) and "hosting schools must assume they won't always be a DCI tournament and must cater to their region in some way(s)" disadvantage (Megan makes) address this point adequately and in ways that you either don't know about or don't care about.

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I am not sure which schools are in question but El Dorado hosted a fine tournament. When you are a coach then you can decide the divisions you offer. The dci selection committee was well aware (I think) of the divisions offered. The tournament host is the one who gets to decide how their tournament is run. If there is some problem then don't come, I am sure others want the spot.

 

I am not even sure if this in reference to Newton's tournament but just in case it is. We are full. Rooms limit us. We are not a 6A school and once the rooms that are off limits to us are counted we have less than 50...way less. I do not put caps on divisions, just total entries. The only reason schools are on the waiting list is due to tardiness in responding. We fill up in 12 hours...as usual. As room comes available then I will allow schools from the wait list in but sorry I cannot create rooms out of thin air.

 

FYI....I emailed out the invite and was full in 12 hours. BVW did not request entry until almost a full week after this date. sorry the website determines he order of who gets in not me. I could not save any entries for anyone. Either they entered in time or not. I wish our program and school was larger to accomodate.

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Apparently I quoted too many earlier comments so had to reply in two posts..

 

El Doredo....

 

First, If you are going to call a school out by name, which is a terrible idea for a plentitude of reasons, at least make an effort to spell the schools name correctly. You may at some point in your debate career have a representative, judge or coach from that school in the back of your room and things that you have stated in the past may come back to haunt you. Words and impressions do matter regardless of other considerations. FYI, it's El Dorado.

 

Chris and I were not referencing your tournament at all. Our initial purpose need not be mistakenly affiliated with any other posts with people from our school. I apologize for them.

 

Second, perhaps it is not wise to assume that what you perceive to be true about a tournament is the only correct possibility. For instance, our building can only accommodate 100 teams comfortably. Of course, we can create rooms or use spaces that are not optimal; however, out of consideration for the debaters we chose not to resort to constructing these alternate rooms and placing a cap on the total number of teams.

 

I understand. That is not the concern. As pointed out above, the frustration is not from lack of space but rather the idea of capping off entries at the DCI division when there is less downside to capping off a different division, especially when there are multiple other open, JV, and novice tournaments each weekend.

 

Fourth, To some extent all tournament have a cap or natural cap that is instilled when they choose to limit the overall number of teams that may attend. Let's be honest, there is only so much available space, even in buildings as large at Wichita East and Washburn Rural. They still give you a total number of teams that you can bring, and have a waiting list to get into the tournament or to get extras. The same was true of our DCI tournament. I think the argument that a DCI division should be unlimited can be warranted; however, the natural imposition of 4, 6 or 9 team limits automatically creates caps that you will not be able to get around in the long run.

 

Your argument about the inherent limitations from space have been answered above. We don't think the tournament should be unlimited in terms of if a school can send 4, 6, or 9 teams (those spots are to be determined by individual squads as to which 4 teams can take those spots). Rather our concern is with capping off entries to the point where some schools cannot even send 1 team.

 

Fifth, part of the reason we choose to apply for a DCI bid was to help ensure that all regions/schools in the state get an opportunity to share in the hosting of DCI tournament and to make sure that there exists a fair division of competition in all regions. It would put schools in our area at a competitive disadvantage if all of the tournaments were in the Eastern area of the state. We do travel as much as we are able, and I feel that the bid process helps to ensure that there really isn't a true inequity in competition. To that extent, it also makes hosting desirable since you do not have to go out of your way to change everything about how you host your tournament. I also feel as though this distinction in regional styles/tournament styles truly divides the good teams from the great by distinguishing those who adapt.

 

I agree, and that is fine. We were never against geographically diverse locations for DCI tournaments - only concerned about entry caps for the division.

 

Finally, 14-18 year olds pontificating about what is best for the community, presuming they know better than reputable coaches who have been in the community for years is to some extent worrisome. If a coach makes a decision, they should respect that decision and presume its for the betterment of the community. All communities go through ups/down, changes, etc, and coaches are the best check to what is best in the timeline of a community to preserve its competitive abilities.

 

We aren't questioning reputations of coaches. Students have also empirically been the backbone of a lot of the new aspects of contemporary debate. Listening to their concerns and taking them into consideration is all that we ask. No one is trying to push the coaches aside.

 

Also, because we would like as many schools as possible to have the opportunity to attend our tournament, we limit a schools entry to 4 teams maximum.

 

This is legitimate and not what we were questioning. Our frustration spawned from schools not getting a single entry.

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Continued. Starts with Mr. Thompson's post

 

Often I find it to be unproductive; and, much like talking to a class of public speaking students on a Friday afternoon, is often tantamount to trying to reason with a 2 year old...people just don't care about logic and reason.

 

I wrote a post that was eerily similar to Megan's last night, but chose not to post it. The reason I've chosen to post here, finally, is because "Juh"'s comments are inflammatory and offensive. Sadly, I believe that they illustrate the same sentiment echoed in earlier supporters of this "Open Letter to the DCI Committee" or whatever BVW BS would like to call their "non confrontational, non argument seeking diatribe"...though clearly in a less professional and reasonable way.

 

Fair enough. If we're 2 year olds and don't care about logic and reason, I don't see why you would respond in the first place to make that shot at us.

 

Second, as pointed out above, neither Chris or I associate ourselves with Juh's comments or any other "troll" who affiliates them self with our school.

 

Third, we have emailed the coach or the tournament in question and failed to receive a response (probably because we are 2 year olds questioning the reputation of the coaches) ;) And yes, after that, we decided to post a non confrontational message about a concern we had that may help the coaches in the future by listening to our frustration. BVW BS intends no harm :)

 

A.) I don't think that you care about schools that don't reside anywhere except your portion of the state. I wish I was wrong here...but the annually CX.com posted evidence which indicates otherwise is simply too overwhelming to ignore. The best part about debate in this state is the sheer volume of students and coaches who compete in the activity. It's sad and troubling to me that you think there should be a Kansas City State Tournament... ignoring the other 500 or so miles of the state to the West.

 

If anything, the controversial and confrontational stream of messages starts here. We have not called into question any portion of the state. This is a universal concern about tournament entry caps - no location. I have no idea why you would bring this into the discussion.

 

Secondly, we have had very enjoyable rounds with your own teams as well as schools from other portion of the state. I don't understand how our initial post "links" to your argument about school location..?

 

B.)A large portion of schools in the state of Kansas (dare I say, the majority)are never able to attend a single overnight tournament in a season. A large number are able to attend 1...the KSHSAA state tournament for their respective classification (because their schools pay for it). Others operate on limited budgets which might afford them the opportunity to travel a time or two per season. They simply cannot access tournaments away from home. Regional diversity doesn't solve this problem, though I wish it could, but it does reduce it.

 

Another non-responsive argument. This has nothing to do with whether or not tournaments should cap off entries for the DCI division... regardless of the location and which schools have the opportunity to attend.

 

C) You want to debate the best teams in the state at DCI, that means that the best teams have to have had a chance to qualify.

 

Yup, so we believe the entry for those qualifying tournaments should be open invitation so the best teams have a chance to qualify. Your position probably "links" into your argument. At a tournament in which schools wishing to go are wait listed or cut off by the cap, teams that maybe shouldn't have qualified given their absence would.

 

2) You ignore and slap in the face the work that the coaches, specifically and most notably (and most importantly) the DCI Committee, VOLUNTEER to do to make this tournament a reality.

 

The committee values regional diversity in DCI bid tournaments, they do the work to find applicants, they get to choose where they're hosted. Something you probably don't know is that they actually ask host schools how many teams they can/will accommodate and what divisions they'll offer...it's not like they're in the dark on these questions. Why do tournaments get selected as they do?, primarily because no one else will volunteer to host them.

 

My sincerest apologies if we slapped you or any other coach in the face. Our concern is not with location, coaches, DCI, or work ethic of coaches and volunteers. We simply addressed an issue regarding entry caps.

 

 

Every year we get to hear about SME getting slighted in favor of Newton. We're tired of this tune. The simple solutions are:

 

a) Convince SME to change the date of their tournament. (Which, I believe they've been asked to do and have chosen not to...I don't blame them...I think that's their choice.)

B) Convince other schools West of Topeka to apply for DCI bids on other weekends to counterbalance the weekend you HAVE to have SME get a bid tournament designation.

c) Don't go to Newton.

d) Help make judging at those tournaments more like what you'd like to see (probably). Show up and judge when you graduate, and encourage your graduated friends to do the same.

 

You are taking this way out of context. We are not arguing that SME should get a bid tournament. That was simply a response to Mr. Dubois' argument that no one else wanted to host that weekend when clearly SME has applied for that position year by year.

 

If your argument is literally "We can't qualify for the DCI because one tournament (out of roughly 15, including national qualifying tournaments) got capped before we were able to get entered...", then I really think you need to reevaluate your position." Including the "NFL Weekend" there are 12 weekends of the invitational debate season. Those students assuming they're going to DCI can only travel on 7 of those weekends. The math seems to make sense to me that you'd be able to fill that void some other weekend...and probably just across town where you don't have to stay in the "Red Roach"...

 

That is not the argument. First, it's undeniable that some tournaments are easier to bid at compared to others simply due to who attends. Chris and I don't need to go to Newton to bid. But perhaps teams that couldn't bid at WaRu or Wichita East would appreciate an opportunity to attend Newton in order to qualify for DCI. That is prevented by a cap and defeats the purpose of making it an open opportunity to the best teams in the state.

 

FYI....I emailed out the invite and was full in 12 hours. BVW did not request entry until almost a full week after this date. sorry the website determines he order of who gets in not me. I could not save any entries for anyone. Either they entered in time or not. I wish our program and school was larger to accomodate.

 

Maybe that was an issue on our part. Not making excuses, but we also have new administration at our program who may not have known about hot quickly Newton fills up, maybe because the status local policy debate is different in Kansas. That said, it doesn't answer our concern. Let's say BVW did request in the 12 hour period. That still doesn't solve the issue of teams not being able to compete in DCI tournaments because of entry caps. It may not have been us, but the issue would still be prevalent.

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Mr. Bill already said he did not put a cap on entries in the DCI division. Neither did El Dorado—so what DCI division are you referring too???

 

Additional food for thought—sometimes coaches go out of their way to allow you into their tournament. For example, you may enter late (lets say one week after the invite was sent out, most tournaments fill in a matter of hours, especially if it is a traditional DCI bid location), but despite your late entry, the tournament host somehow finds a way to let you in. When you are a student and you publicly complain about other coaches (ie: those who host bid tournaments, or those who go out of their way to complete the DCI committee), their willingness to hook you up with a favor is pretty low. Not making an accusation that Mr. Bill will intentionally take you off that magical waiting list to let you in, or that the DCI committee won't do you any favors in the future—but if I was in their position, and you had the guts to criticize me publicly with your school name attached to it—my willingness to do your school any favors is out of the question.

 

The real “backbone†of this community are those coaches who form the DCI committee and offer to host the tournaments. I find it fascinating that students who have been in the community for a maximum of 4 years feel like they have a better knowledge base of what is best for KS debate, because you know better than the Cindy's and Pam's of the world, people who have literally committed their lives to fostering this activity in KS—yet in your 4 years of non-coaching experience you know more....

 

Pre-empt: the semantic game of “we didn't intend to offend any coaches†is out—the fact that numerous coaches, who normally don't bother to reply, have felt somewhat offended by your comments proves that regardless of intent, your not improving your name.

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Mr. Bill already said he did not put a cap on entries in the DCI division. Neither did El Dorado—so what DCI division are you referring too???

 

Additional food for thought—sometimes coaches go out of their way to allow you into their tournament. For example, you may enter late (lets say one week after the invite was sent out, most tournaments fill in a matter of hours, especially if it is a traditional DCI bid location), but despite your late entry, the tournament host somehow finds a way to let you in. When you are a student and you publicly complain about other coaches (ie: those who host bid tournaments, or those who go out of their way to complete the DCI committee), their willingness to hook you up with a favor is pretty low. Not making an accusation that Mr. Bill will intentionally take you off that magical waiting list to let you in, or that the DCI committee won't do you any favors in the future—but if I was in their position, and you had the guts to criticize me publicly with your school name attached to it—my willingness to do your school any favors is out of the question.

 

The real “backbone†of this community are those coaches who form the DCI committee and offer to host the tournaments. I find it fascinating that students who have been in the community for a maximum of 4 years feel like they have a better knowledge base of what is best for KS debate, because you know better than the Cindy's and Pam's of the world, people who have literally committed their lives to fostering this activity in KS—yet in your 4 years of non-coaching experience you know more....

 

Pre-empt: the semantic game of “we didn't intend to offend any coaches†is out—the fact that numerous coaches, who normally don't bother to reply, have felt somewhat offended by your comments proves that regardless of intent, your not improving your name.

 

I don't think anyone except Mr. Beef mentioned Newton, in fact I don't think they were even talking about the Newton tournament in the first place. Regardless, Christopher and Ideen were not intending to offend any coaches and I personally felt the original post was as polite and professional as possible and the unfortunate string of posts afterwards were sparked by the inappropriate comments by other anonymous posters. I have no idea who "Juh" is but his comments were completely unnecessary and shouldn't be taken with a grain of salt as he in no way associated with the Blue Valley West debate program.

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What is your solution then? The problem isn't that you haven't raised a concern or highlighted an issue, but any solution has 2 sides: the side that "solves" your problem, but also the side that is hurt by your "solution". Any attempt to increase/uncap the size of a "DCI division" trades off with other debate that is inherently productive and necessary for many schools to host/attend - Novice, JV and/or Open divisions. In many cases, it is not practical for schools to host a 1 division tournament. I think these concerns are outlined above...but for clarity and moving forwards sake - there are two sides...both might be legitimate - but solutions will not be made here.

 

As coaches, we've got concerns too.

 

The vast majority of my discussion is a response to those primary concerns - perhaps you didn't make "those arguments" but you did continue the long running, unfortunate tradition of student criticism of the way the DCI tournament (and prerequisite bid tournaments) are managed and organized. This is what is unfortunate. You've taken the brunt of this discussion as the originator of a topic which is hopelessly re-occuring at this point. This does not mean that I think your argument is inaccurate or unfounded. Maybe the vast majority of my post was "unresponsive" in your opinion to YOUR concern(s) (though you did conveniently ignore the portions which were responsive)...but they WERE a general discussion of how I have perceived coaches to feel about posts such as this one which create a place for students (trolls) to criticize an institution they shouldn't criticize. That is what I feel makes my post relevant.

 

So, what was my purpose, goal or hope by posting?

 

First, to let "trolls" know that they're not productive.

 

But second, and a good lesson to learn for you (I hope) and others who have concerns in the future, is that this forum is not a place to try to make changes. The place to try to make changes is THROUGH your coach, at the coaches' meeting held at the DCI. If you've got a concern, relay it to your coach and let them bring it up. Maybe this isn't "fair", and you're right, maybe it means you don't get to be that voice...but trust me when I say it'll be better received by coaches that way than this way. Why? Not because YOU'RE inherently bad...but because public forums like this bring out the "trolls" like Juh, etc. that become vulgar, offensive and ultimately counterproductive. You'll notice the intent of my post was aimed at responses to your post. I had hoped that I could speak with you about this at some other time, when our paths cross, and suggest to you this very solution (about your coach bringing it up @ the meeting)...sadly that didn't occur. Ultimately, by making your statements here, you only (in my opinion) increase the likelihood that a) your message will not be well received (if at all) and B) your message will be co-opted by the "trolls" being criticized, thus ruining any productive aspect it might have initially had.

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I don't think anyone except Mr. Beef mentioned Newton, in fact I don't think they were even talking about the Newton tournament in the first place. Regardless, Christopher and Ideen were not intending to offend any coaches and I personally felt the original post was as polite and professional as possible and the unfortunate string of posts afterwards were sparked by the inappropriate comments by other anonymous posters. I have no idea who "Juh" is but his comments were completely unnecessary and shouldn't be taken with a grain of salt as he in no way associated with the Blue Valley West debate program.

 

 

I appreciate your response--whose tournament are you criticizing with caps then?

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I appreciate your response--whose tournament are you criticizing with caps then?

 

It was actually not meant to criticize any one tournament. Just a discussion about DCI caps as a whole. That's why the original post did not name any one tournament.

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I have no hard feelings at all on this issue. It is unfortunate that the message comes out like this. I know there were never any names or schools mentioned but not mentioning them only irritated more people who might have felt the message meant for them. The BVW debate program is outstanding and new coaches always have some kind of learning curve but that does not change the size of my building.

I got an email from the BVW coach requesting entry and I let her know what the situation was.

I did not get any other email from BVW students or coaches. If the unnamed coach who would not respond to emails was supposed to be me then maybe you got the wrong address. dwilliam@newton.k12.ks.us in case your coach needs it. Yes, and Emily (my debater) did tell me Ideen (sp?) asked for my email but like I said, I got nothing.

 

ON a more positive not, if any coaches out there that are entered in the NEWTON tourney decide they cannot attend, then make the changes on speechmeets.com asap so I can make room for all who want to attend. Thanks.

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It was actually not meant to criticize any one tournament. Just a discussion about DCI caps as a whole. That's why the original post did not name any one tournament.

I don't know of a tournament with caps unless you are referring to SMW(this is not a crack at SMW) allowing only 2 in dci? I guess caps of 4 teams total..is that what you mean by caps?

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Several points to make here:

 

1. I don't necessarily disagree with the notion that DCI bid tournaments probably should not host additional divisions where space is a concern. However, I think that Mr Dubois does a fine job addressing this argument when he says the committee has no power to enforce such restrictions, and that the weekends are barely even being covered in the status quo. Beggars can't be choosers, and coaches can run their tournaments however they see fit.

 

2. Entry restrictions are inevitable and have always existed. This is nothing new, giving a tournament the DCI label doesn't make these issues go away. It would be nice if every weekend there was a school that had the resources of WaRu (as an example) to host, but obviously this just isn't the case.

 

3. Learn how and when to raise such concerns.... Also, learn to see past your own self interest. Imagine the best case scenario of bringing this to light, what is Newton supposed to do? Are they going to close their JV (or whatever) division after schools have already entered? So your answer to the problem of a few people being inconvenienced is to inconvenience every school that have entries in that division?

 

The person to raise this issue is your coach, and the time to raise the issue is at the DCI coaches meeting. Protip: make sure your coach brings his or her secret robes and knows the passphrase.

 

4. Geographical diversity of DCI bid tournaments is of utmost importance. I don't need any warrants for this because it is a obvious as saying that the sky is blue. Let me let you in on a little secret: Great tournaments west of Topeka exist, have always existed, and will continue to exist. Every person has the power to make ANY tournament a good one by going out and judging after they graduate... I am a broken record about this... wait, that reference is too dated... I'm an iPod set on repeat.

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While this is now largely irrelevant and I don't want to get sucked into the whirlpool mess that is Cross-X arguments, one thing I feel that is worth mentioning is that the Newton tournament is invaluable from the perspective of a West Kansas debater. It's a great preparation tournament for our NFL qualifiers and without it we couldn't prepare for our most important tournament of the year without wasting a potential DCI bid.

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