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retired

Checking in from Wisconsin

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61k pre-signatures to recall gov.

 

there are full funded efforts to recall 8 republican state senators. flipping 3 would win control of the senate. avg. 15k-25k signatures in each senate district needed to put it on the ballot (depending on '10 turnout).

Edited by retired

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so whats going on here?

 

republicans and their dept. of admin basically shut down the capitol. republican operatives planted live ammunition around the capitol to help make their case.

 

its being litigated, and the judge is essentially on the side of the protesters (the wisconsin constitution is pretty clear on this)

 

now, repubies in the senate are holding the dems in contempt of the senate and disorderly behavior if they do not return by 4pm.

 

they will attempt extradition

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so whats going on here?

 

republicans and their dept. of admin basically shut down the capitol. republican operatives planted live ammunition around the capitol to help make their case.

 

its being litigated, and the judge is essentially on the side of the protesters (the wisconsin constitution is pretty clear on this)

 

now, repubies in the senate are holding the dems in contempt of the senate and disorderly behavior if they do not return by 4pm.

 

they will attempt extradition

Pretty lawltastic from the party that wants less gov. intervention in citizens' lives.

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Recall efforts are under way, both in the assembly and state senate. Over the next 60 days, we will see how 'safe' these republican seats are. There is town hall protests and events all over the state daily.

 

We may flip the senate before Scott Walker has a chance to beg for more Koch money.

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I think that will probably cement Walkers Recall, proving to me that hes a moron.

 

If he were smart hedve taken their offers of pay and benefit concessions, make them feel victorious in defeat.

 

Then bring up the collective bargaining next time he needs something.

 

Im gonna run for governor of something.

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If the Dems are smart they'll use this in some way to say; "You may not like everything we are doing, but THIS is what happens when you give Repubs control of things."

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This is great! Republicans stripped all the financials out and passed the union stripping bill by themselves.

 

Randy Hopper - less than 1%

Dan Kapanke - less than 3%

Whatever herface darlington- won by several hundred votes

 

these 3 state senators are enough to flip the senate to dem control.

 

assembly is next.

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This is great!....

 

these 3 state senators are enough to flip the senate to dem control.

??

 

Since you're there and I'm not, this is definitely a question and not a criticism. But assuming you are correct that the senate will get flipped... isn't the union busting bill becoming law kind of a high price to pay for flipping the senate? If/when the flip happens, the bill will still be law and repeal will be difficult with Walker in office, right?

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No, there are 2 key ways this will get overturned.

 

1. Its a fiscal bill. They need a quorum and they didn't have it and pretended to pass it anyway.

 

2. They violated open meeting laws. They did not provide 24 hour notice to anyone, including democratic leadership that they were going to convene.

 

In addition, Jan 3, 2012 isn't far off. That means assembly republicans can be recalled at the same time as walker. Undoing the collective bargaining damage will not be difficult. The provisions about collective bargaining are neither long winded nor overly technical.

 

More difficult is undoing the other damage in Walker's budget proper. Its going to be really hard to change wisconsin finances after republicans crash it. They are basically telling JPMorgan that we'll pay back our bonds at the highest rate possible on the backs of workers instead of refinancing for lower rates, cheaper cash and lower debt ratios.

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Yeah, this wasn't a fiscal bill retired. You know that as well as everybody else.

 

Anyhow, someone wanna actually defend public worker unions are a good thing? Private unions I get. But public unions? We need to protect them from the greed of the taxpayer? I mean, they contribute to the campaigns of politicians who they then negotiate contracts with. I'm sure there's no conflict of interest there. The only reason they even exist in the first place is because JFK owed them a political favor after getting elected.

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Yeah, this wasn't a fiscal bill retired. You know that as well as everybody else.

 

Right. Either its not a budgetary item and Walker is lying or it is a budgetary item and they didn't have quorum.

 

Either way, its a political loss for republicans. Winners dont win when 75% of your state is against your actions.

 

 

Anyhow, someone wanna actually defend public worker unions are a good thing? Private unions I get. But public unions?

 

I guess I can take some time to educate you. Public unions don't just bargain for wages -- unions are key to safe work place conditions. Unions also provide a mechanism for public pensions, grievance procedures that don't include your boss. They existed before JFK -- in Wisconsin. We started public unions because our public employees were being walked on. Its pretty simple, really.

 

I mean, they contribute to the campaigns of politicians who they then negotiate contracts with.

 

This just isn't true. But feel free to explain this fox news talking point.

 

I'm well aware the corporate lobbyists physically write the legislation that goes through congress, all the while paying for their campaigns and outside advertising, Im sure there is no conflict of interest there. Don't know of a single union that has written a bill that passed as is.

 

But hey, ignorance is bliss.

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Either way, its a political loss for republicans. Winners dont win when 75% of your state is against your actions.

 

I don't disagree with that. Its pretty much a smaller scale of the Dems health care bill. And we already know how that went. That said, I do think its funny that Dems are all up in arms about this. "Elections have consequences"... Obama likes to remind people of that. Running to Illinois because the big, bad Republicans were taking a page out of the national Democrats playbook is kinda funny.

 

I guess I can take some time to educate you. Public unions don't just bargain for wages -- unions are key to safe work place conditions. Unions also provide a mechanism for public pensions, grievance procedures that don't include your boss. They existed before JFK -- in Wisconsin. We started public unions because our public employees were being walked on. Its pretty simple, really.

 

So, you're kinda helping me here. "They don't just negotiate wages... they also negotiate pensions and a bunch of other benefits too!" The only other aspect of your argument is safe working conditions (which you say twice but whatever). The market completely solves that. No one is forcing you to take a job with poor work conditions. What are the horrible conditions that they have to endure in Virginia or other states without public sector unions?

 

I'm well aware the corporate lobbyists physically write the legislation that goes through congress, all the while paying for their campaigns and outside advertising, Im sure there is no conflict of interest there. Don't know of a single union that has written a bill that passed as is.

 

But hey, ignorance is bliss.

 

You realize that you used corporations as an answer to public unions, right? Corporations aren't the antagonists to public sector unions. They're relevant when you want to talk about private sector unions, but not really when you talk about public sector unions. There is kind of a fundamental difference. And even if I grant you all that, you know as well as I do that unions have a big role in a lot of legislation. They're not totally helpless in the legislative process and if they were, they wouldn't exist.

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Just got done donating to 1) re-elect members of the Wisconsin 14, 2) support the recall efforts, and 3) MoveOn.org's campaign on the issue. I don't even live in the state, but I feel compelled to support people who really put themselves on the line to stop a bill like this. Bravo.

Edited by Danny Tanner
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Anyhow, someone wanna actually defend public worker unions are a good thing? Private unions I get. But public unions? We need to protect them from the greed of the taxpayer? I mean, they contribute to the campaigns of politicians who they then negotiate contracts with. I'm sure there's no conflict of interest there. The only reason they even exist in the first place is because JFK owed them a political favor after getting elected.

 

My brother works for Tulsa Public Works as a water line repairman, and has been doing it long enough to become a crew leader. He's a member of AFSCME. He still makes crap, has mandatory overtime, and is constantly on call. His benefits suck, though he does have minimum health coverage. I don't mind at all that he has someone to fight for him.

 

Some cities have turned over water to private contractors. Prices skyrocketed, quality suffered, and when there was a water main leak, they dealt with it during daylight hours only. In the middle of winter when you have no water and someone like my brother is waist deep in a hole trying to fix it, let's make sure he makes enough to feed his family and has health insurance.

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I don't disagree with that. Its pretty much a smaller scale of the Dems health care bill. And we already know how that went. That said, I do think its funny that Dems are all up in arms about this. "Elections have consequences"... Obama likes to remind people of that. Running to Illinois because the big, bad Republicans were taking a page out of the national Democrats playbook is kinda funny.

 

Which part is funny? The part where democrats took nearly a year to craft a bill and spent all of that year trying to massage anything progressive out of the reform so a single republican would vote for (none did)? Or the part where Walker tried to ram through union busting in 4 days? Guess how many dem amendments got voted up? 0.

 

Is the funny part that David Koch (yes, the same) and Dick Armey astroturfed the "Teabaggers" who were shouting things like "Government - hands of my medicare" and had absolutely no real complaint or the is the funny part where 100k+ Wisconsinites break vietnam era protest records in a classic case of right wing over reach?

 

Hahah. pretty funny stuff. but youre right - the two are exactly the same.

 

So, you're kinda helping me here. "They don't just negotiate wages... they also negotiate pensions and a bunch of other benefits too!"

 

I don't think you understand what the word pension means. A pension is a deferred wage, typically pre-tax, that is treated like a retirement account. A pension is not a benefit extracted from the taxpayer, its taken out of wages.

 

The "other benefits" you speak of are things like who gets first dibs on overtime, how to handle mandatory overtime, how to treat sick days. These are not things you want some recently elected city manager making decisions on, or you might get a worker strike. Labor peace is key to good faith negotiation.

 

The only other aspect of your argument is safe working conditions (which you say twice but whatever). The market completely solves that. No one is forcing you to take a job with poor work conditions. What are the horrible conditions that they have to endure in Virginia or other states without public sector unions?

 

Is there something about the word public you don't understand? Why are you encouraging a race to the bottom?

 

Your response shows how ignorant you are chosing to be -- as if cleaning out sewage pipes, opening steam valves, driving 4 ton trucks or working in a prison were the easiest jobs on earth.

 

Who could get hurt in a prison? Just privatize, right?

 

You realize that you used corporations as an answer to public unions, right?

Yes. So did you. The market solves, right?

 

Corporations aren't the antagonists to public sector unions.

 

Actually, they are. Public unions guard against the privatization of services. Whether schools, prison or welfare administration, public workers are about all that stands between you and a corporation looking to sell you out on your own tax dollars.

They're relevant when you want to talk about private sector unions,

Yes.

but not really when you talk about public sector unions.

no, as ive shown above. but also, no. public sector unions and seiu are the only major donors to the democratic party. all other major national donors are pacs made up from billionaires and other corporate contributions.

 

the agenda of these corporations is directly against the agenda of public unions (protecting public services).

 

you know as well as I do that unions have a big role in a lot of legislation. They're not totally helpless in the legislative process and if they were, they wouldn't exist.

 

oh, please, do share. we'd all love to hear the beckian rants of a man who thinks unions have undue legislative influence and if we just let the market decided, that would take care of corporate masters.

Edited by retired
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oh, please, do share. we'd all love to hear the beckian rants of a man who thinks unions have undue legislative influence and if we just let the market decided, that would take care of corporate masters.

 

Fuck you. I now remember why I didn't post on this board. I said nothing like that and you know that as well as I do. If you don't think unions play a role in legislation, then you're too stupid for me to even bother having a conversation with. All I said was that unions played a big role. But go on making stupid assumptions rather than just reading what I said. I don't much appreciate my words being twisted so that you can laugh about how clever you are when I was at least trying to have a real conversation. I sure am glad some middle aged liberal arts dropout from bumblefuck college is around to tell someone who is much much smarter than them how to think.

Edited by gopal
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Can someone explain to me why unions should have monopolies on their existence? Not that they cant form a natural monopoly by virtue of awesomeness, but rather they have forced monopolies. I cannot fathom how this is good for ANYONE involved - least of all the workers who need to have majority in order to eliminate one union and swap to another.

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Can someone explain to me why unions should have monopolies on their existence? Not that they cant form a natural monopoly by virtue of awesomeness, but rather they have forced monopolies. I cannot fathom how this is good for ANYONE involved - least of all the workers who need to have majority in order to eliminate one union and swap to another.

I suspect it's to address the significant "free-rider" problem that would arise if union membership (and the associated dues) were not mandatory. While unions are most needed in times of trouble, they are more powerful when regularly-constituted and not ad hoc.

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