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2010-11 KS Caselist

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New question/interjection. Why don't coaches with legitimate concerns but who are open to the possibility of change and the possibility of getting benefits from technology and community cooperation reach out to the college community and see what they think about the casebook, the benefits and disads of them, etc? Seems like if people want proof of any disadvantages or benefits to it asking as many people in a community that has such a system and seeing what their experience tells would be the way to do it. Obviously there's some possibility of bias which is what I'm guessing the natural response to reading this post would be but that just means you should ask your questions more precisely, really try to get at the disadvantages.
Wow, ask and ye shall receive! Interesting that the things that are being said here are also the things being said in the college world.

 

Also, look to my previous Solvency argument. What works (or doesn't) for the college world needs further evaluation when looked at for the high school world.

 

Are you kidding me? I had the god damn KSDebate twitter on auto-refresh during nats last year. I think maybe I've pushed the whole "not being in NFL" thing a little far; it's not about our absence from the grownup's table. It's more about the fact that being a smaller, newer school on the KS debate circuit is like walking through the lunchroom at a new school ... buck naked. To be honest, the cult of the Kansas debate circuit is as esoteric an endeavor as reading a book in Russian is to the average American.
This saddens me. You clearly are no longer saying Kansas lacks a strong sense of community. Quite the opposite really, you are saying we are such a strong community that you feel left out. That is very sad. I would very much like to correct that for you. If you see me at a tournament, please feel free to introduce yourself and I will go out of my way to make you feel like a part of the community. You can recognize me at a tournament, because I'm the fat guy talking to students about debate.

 

Kansas has evolved into a circuit of the "haves" and the "have nots." All I'm saying is that if the wiki can help any smaller team become even that much more competitive against the big schools, then I'll do everything I can to support it.
I'm really sorry you feel that way. I disagree. You probably see my squad as a "have", but I assure you my kids work very hard at what they do to earn everything they get.

 

Ok, maybe this was a little off the mark. But the whole point of a case list is disclosure, after all. But all I'm saying is that posting old stuff that you will run infrequently (as I did with Ryan and me's SoKo policy aff, which we tend to rarely run) is to at least pledge support. Even if you or your coach aren't entirely sure about posting your newest and up-to-date affs, putting on some older stuff might convince some people teetering on the edge that the wiki isn't such a lost cause. But you won't do that, will you? Because it's unthinkable that better informed debates might be better, amirite?
So you are so desprite for support and a feeling of community that you would sacrifice every benefit you claim only to get people to acknowledge your idea? That makes me feel bad too. It isn't a true show of support if people destroy the education that you are working for. We as a community can post a bunch of cases, none of which will ever be run, and what has that accomplished? That people will flood legitimate information with lies? Stay true to your ideals if you want to be successful. I may disagree with you, but I hope you at least won't compromise what you value for the sake of feeling like people are with you.

 

And for that matter, I'm with you. We disagree on what will lead to your success, but we both want you to get the benefits of the activity.

 

Why are you always so vindictive, spiteful, and rude? It's seriously getting annoying. Let the teams that want to post their cites, post their cites. We get it, you don't support it. Don't get mad at Ciera for trying to do something that might make things a little better in KS. In fact, if you're so concerned about the horrible things that might happen if 1NC strategies start making sense, why don't you go cut blocks or something?
I wasn't vindictive, spiteful, and rude when we were discussing disclosure. When Ciera attacked the character of me and every debate coach in Kansas I reacted in what I thought was a measured and appropriate response. As T-Money said, there are natural consequences in questioning the integrety of those who sacrifice for your behalf and then not answering to the response or at least warranting the orginal attack. Nothing was personal until then. Want to make positive change? Don't personnally attack everyone that has come before you by calling them biased just because you don't understand their decisions and never bothered to get the full story. And at this point, a simple appology would go a long way to restoring civility, but that hasn't occured either. Yes, I was rude, but at least I'm here justifying my actions. You may not agree that they were just, but at least I've shared with you my perspective.

 

First, I think it says a lot about the people who have resorted to insults in an attempt to advance their arguments. I'm not sure what you get out of insulting high school kids, but if you think it does anything other than shed light on your own insecurities and the potential weaknesses in your arguments, than you're the fool. Be honest...each and every one of us has plenty to be made fun of for, and the individuals using personal insults shouldn't want any of those doors opening on them.
Help me out here. Which post has an ad hominem attack? I think I'm missing it. Even my self-admittingly-rude post did not throw out insults. I called out bad behavior and mocked it. Perhaps my nuance was lost and it was taken as simply being insulting, in which I then failed in my purpose. But perhaps you weren't talking about me, in which I am now coming across as arrogant (not an insult, but an observation), and if that is the case I appologize.

 

Second, I don't know why this conversation always has to get so hostile. It's a great discussion to be had. Some people think case lists and disclosure are great for debate, and others don't. At the end of the day, the fault lies on the people who end up forcing their beliefs on others, and I think both parties involved here are guilty of that. If people want to participate in a case list or disclosure, so be it. If not, no big deal. None of this should be about winning or losing individual debates, but instead how the participants of the activity can get more of what they value from it, and that's not wins or losses.
If I were to publish that you are a bigot among a community that you care about, and when dirrectly questioned about it refused to warrant my claim but held to it, you wouldn't feel any hostility? I wouldn't deserve a rebuking for my actions? The discussion about disclosure wasn't hostile. Look at the discussion on the thread and when things fell apart.

 

Ciera is also attacking your credibility Sean.

 

I think it's time for everybody here to take a second and think about why they're choosing to get involved in this thread. Are you really concerned for the small guys and the activity, or are you just looking for a place for somebody to give a shit about you. I can assure you that there are many of you I respect far less because of your conduct on this website.
I know why I post. I post to express my counter perspective when it is not present. I posted on this thread because students were claiming not just that disclosure was good but that they were better than everyone else because they disclose. I countered. Now I post because the character of the debate coaches of this community was unjustly attacked without warrant. If you lost respect for me, well that is unfortunate and I look forward to finding ways to regain that respect.

 

Volen, an answer is on it's way.....just a 10 page essay, a midterm, and glenbrooks is getting in the way. But when I do, you can bet that it'll be a doosey.
I very much look forward to it!! You have always been good at challenging/changing my perspective and ideals.

 

Whoops, sorry! You're right. I forgot that a grown ass adult should make proportional reactions to high school kids. I'm definitely the ass for pointing out what this forum is capable of, not you. My apologies.
I felt like the reactions were proportional. Apparently you disagree. I feel that when a student displays poor behavior it is the responsibility of grown ass adults to let that student know that their actions can not be tollerated. Sean, you are a grown ass adult now, do you not chastize your students when they misbehave? If one of your students displayed the behavior that is on this thread at a tournament, you are telling me that your reaction would not be to publicly call that student out to not only let that student but all of your students know that you will not put up with that behavior? Well, if one of my students come up to you at a tournament and tell you that you lack character, please let me know so I can do the same for my students.

 

Irregardless of whether or not that particular instance was truly an accident or not (which, to be honest, I'm not so sure either way), the fact of the matter is that certain schools do get preferential treatment on the KS debate circuit. You don't have to acknowledge it, but often enough there are judges who are put in the position of (for example) having a SME or BVW (etc) team that lost a round, but you don't want to be "that judge that dropped the [xxx] team." There are politics at play on all levels, and anyone who disagrees is absolutely ridiculous.
Interesting. You are claiming you are getting rep'd out in rounds. I'm surprised. Its frustrating that you would feel that way. I have absolutely felt that when we have travelled the national circuit. I'm an a huge fan of codes rather than school names for that very reason. Kansas tournaments are nearly universal in the use of codes for that exact reason, and so only the most informed judge (usually an assistant coach) would know which school you are from. So you are claiming that an assistant coach who has loyalties to SME and BV schools would play politics rather than evaluate the round based on its merits? I guess you would be saying a person like that lacks character.

 

You also too seem to be indicting the Newton tab staff on being in on the conspiracy. You deny that they made an honest tab error. I for one know the coach and the program at Newton and will vouch for their integrety. I don't even know what happened, but I have every faith that any confusion was accidental and they worked very hard to make it right. Do you actually know the individuals involved to make any claim to the contrary? Or is this continued accusation just part of your psychology of being the victim?

 

I truly hope that we can overcome the feelings of hostility, but I doubt that will happen until the baseless attacks on others ends. We can disagree on whether case lists are good or bad, but the unfounded, public attacks on character and claims of victimization need to stop.

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If you see me at a tournament, please feel free to introduce yourself and I will go out of my way to make you feel like a part of the community. You can recognize me at a tournament, because I'm the fat guy talking to students about debate.

 

Dude. Seriously? That's like saying "I'll be the closet case at the mega-church conference." The poor kid has a better chance of finding Jimmy Hoffa at a Glenn Beck rally.

 

Congrats, Volen, you've saved David Ralph and Jeramiah Forbes from being bothered at some future tournament. As for the rest of us, I guess it's time to play "Find the Fatty!"

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you've saved David Ralph and Jeramiah Forbes from being bothered at some future tournament. As for the rest of us, I guess it's time to play "Find the Fatty!"

After reading, this Trey Witt should be included in this list of people not confused as "the Fat Guy".

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You also too seem to be indicting the Newton tab staff on being in on the conspiracy. You deny that they made an honest tab error. I for one know the coach and the program at Newton and will vouch for their integrety. I don't even know what happened, but I have every faith that any confusion was accidental and they worked very hard to make it right. Do you actually know the individuals involved to make any claim to the contrary? Or is this continued accusation just part of your psychology of being the victim?

 

I can vouch for this Mr. Volen. We only have two fourth years on our team this year, myself and the other Tyler. We were both gone from Thursday through Sunday at a National Journalism Conference which means that we had a third year junior, three sophomore experienced debaters, and even a smart sophomore novice in tab at our tournament. The staff that we had did the best that we could and only making one minor mistake is good for a tab staff like that at a big tournament like Newton. And, the mistake could have been easily overlooked by any tab staff because it all came down to opp record or maybe even past that, stuff like this happens and the only thing we can do is forgive and forget. Michael doesn't know how hard it is to tab due to the fact that they never host a tournament because their school doesn't have the most support in the debate team and their school is rather small.

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I don't think publicly humiliating a high school student is ever the appropriate response for an adult, educator, assistant, etc. At some point, being the mature adult is the right thing to do no matter how hard the emotional impulses might be. I understand that people get upset, but jesus some of these posts are ridiculous. If a kid is acting out at a tournament, you shouldn't make a grand show out of it. A lot of times, I would guess a reaction like that would make the situation much worse.

 

I think it's awesome that coaches and alumni of the community want to participate so much on the forum, definitely more than I remember from when I was in high school. However, I don't think sacrificing professionalism is acceptable. I don't see a lot of these conversations happening the same way they might in a classroom with an admin present. I think kids have to be careful about what they say on this website, and often times they're not. What's more problematic for me is that I occasionally think the same thing about coaches/assistants. At least the kids have the excuse immaturity and inexperience.

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I can vouch for this Mr. Volen. We only have two fourth years on our team this year, myself and the other Tyler. We were both gone from Thursday through Sunday at a National Journalism Conference which means that we had a third year junior, three sophomore experienced debaters, and even a smart sophomore novice in tab at our tournament. The staff that we had did the best that we could and only making one minor mistake is good for a tab staff like that at a big tournament like Newton. And, the mistake could have been easily overlooked by any tab staff because it all came down to opp record or maybe even past that, stuff like this happens and the only thing we can do is forgive and forget. Michael doesn't know how hard it is to tab due to the fact that they never host a tournament because their school doesn't have the most support in the debate team and their school is rather small.

 

I am sorry for the negative comments I made regarding the Newton debate tournament. It was very well run, and I know Emily or anyone else on the Newton squad would never do anything to be biased or unfair in any way. It was a huge (octas bid) tournament and there was no delay between rounds or any sort of hiccups (other than the one that has already been discussed).

 

The deskboy calls for calm.

 

Deskboy Calm Initiative

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I can say from experience that making no mistakes in tab is literally impossible. If there is someone on this planet that has managed to run a perfect tab they need to be awarded, then promptly sent to an institution because that kind of meticulousness is not humanly feasible, especially at a big tournament.

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Kinda. It depends, was that a fat joke towards me? If so omgiamdeeplyoffended :)

 

 

 

No not really. I'm sure that there is the occasional college freshman with an axe to grind, but those are the exception not the rule. Most judges try hard to be objective and vote on the issues in the round. If you are lucky enough to be at a tournament with experienced judges that give oral critiques, don't be afraid to ask questions.

 

Blaming judges on your losses is the best way to impede your development as a debater. It leads to a false sense of ego, an "it's not me it's them" mentality which is a barrier to true improvement. No matter how lay, flow, or bizarre your judge is there is always something that you could have done to win the round.

How do you grind an axe in round? I feel like schools would consider that a weapon and wouldn't let you into the building with it. But I agree, 99% of judges are objective. They never let their own personal views, like being a republican or democrat, affect how they vote. People never tell their mom's not to vote for a certain team just because they are their rivals. And people should never have a false sense of an ego: A true sense of an ego is much better.

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Due to lack of participation by many schools, the 2010-2011 Caselist recently underwent a change in design in order to become user friendly.

 

As of now, 17 teams from 12 schools are participating.

 

I know many of you are looking at it for brief ideas as to what teams are running, but please also support the project by uploading your own teams' cites!

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Due to lack of participation by many schools, the 2010-2011 Caselist recently underwent a change in design in order to become user friendly.

 

As of now, 17 teams from 12 schools are participating.

 

I know many of you are looking at it for brief ideas as to what teams are running, but please also support the project by uploading your own teams' cites!

 

This might be a dumb question, but has anyone ever tried having a wiki that could only be viewed by members? I recognize that some teams would join and then not upload, but then other users could at least see which people were viewing cases without posting their own.

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