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2010-11 KS Caselist

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Without a caselist how can I be fully prepared to hit the Okinawa case everyone runs?!?!? The broad nature of this topic NECESSITATES a caselist. Without a caselist... Kansas debate will die. Same goes for if we can't go to the T.O.C. Oh and lay judges too. When is the funeral for Kansas debate??

 

Um.... "BROAD".... what are you talking about, you just said Okinawa was the only aff you hit, how can the topic be broad. there are only 8 affs anyway...

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The lack of responsiveness in your "responses" is incredible, especially coming from ex-debaters/coaches. Although I think I can identify the reason-you can't argue with truth and that's all I've been advocating. I still don't see an answer to much of what I think is the crux of the reason I think caselists are good. It seems to me there are underlying prejudices that cloud people's opinion of the utility of the caselist and disclosure. The resistance to the caselist is rooted in resistance to the progressive kind of debate you believe it represents. This is evident in your arguments about coaching, large vs small schools, scouting, and such. We'll never be able to instigate these material changes in the Kansas debate community until there is an attitude shift. It may appear to some that the attitude is changing, that we're becoming more accepting of a different style of debate; but threads like this and recent DCI events expose the real prejudices that still exist and are a massive impediment to any kind of change we seek.

 

peace OUT.

 

I think this is a nod to the "fake bid" that Jenny and I received this weekend and the controversy afterwards.

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The lack of responsiveness in your "responses" is incredible, especially coming from ex-debaters/coaches. Although I think I can identify the reason-you can't argue with truth and that's all I've been advocating. I still don't see an answer to much of what I think is the crux of the reason I think caselists are good. It seems to me there are underlying prejudices that cloud people's opinion of the utility of the caselist and disclosure. The resistance to the caselist is rooted in resistance to the progressive kind of debate you believe it represents. This is evident in your arguments about coaching, large vs small schools, scouting, and such. We'll never be able to instigate these material changes in the Kansas debate community until there is an attitude shift. It may appear to some that the attitude is changing, that we're becoming more accepting of a different style of debate; but threads like this and recent DCI events expose the real prejudices that still exist and are a massive impediment to any kind of change we seek.

 

peace OUT.

 

sick post

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I think this is a nod to the "fake bid" that Jenny and I received this weekend and the controversy afterwards.

 

Hate to pour salt in the wound, but would you mind explaining?

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Hate to pour salt in the wound, but would you mind explaining?

 

Sure. There was an issue with the tab room at Newton this weekend and it was released that Jenny and I had a bid when we really didn't. It wasn't so much of an issue for me, but it was Jenny's second. It wasn't anyone's fault, but to my understanding there was a committee decision that the bid should be revoked after a day or so of debate.

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It seems to me that we have gotten off topic, but I would love to hear it as I was absent from our tournament at a National Journalism Conference. Also, I would love it if national circuit lurkers from other schools could give their input regarding this matter. For example: how it has effected the debating done by them and what they have witnessed from disclosing. Thanks!

 

EDIT: You posted too fast lol.

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If there is anyone else that would support an official unofficial award for the team/squad that does the best job of disclosing, please post. If there's no support for it, I'll let it die, but I really think it would be a good incentive for those willing to disclose to take it to another level.

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It seems to me that we have gotten off topic, but I would love to hear it as I was absent from our tournament at a National Journalism Conference. Also, I would love it if national circuit lurkers from other schools could give their input regarding this matter. For example: how it has effected the debating done by them and what they have witnessed from disclosing. Thanks!

 

EDIT: You posted too fast lol.

 

um, alot of Kansas schools actually go to circut tournaments and I'll tell you from experience it really helps. Disclosure allows the neg to have a coherent strategy in the 1nc and believe it or not, its much easier for affs to respond to an organized, well developed 1nc

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recent DCI events expose the real prejudices that still exist and are a massive impediment to any kind of change we seek.

 

Oh, by all means, do explain.

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The lack of responsiveness in your "responses" is incredible, especially coming from ex-debaters/coaches. Although I think I can identify the reason-you can't argue with truth and that's all I've been advocating. I still don't see an answer to much of what I think is the crux of the reason I think caselists are good. It seems to me there are underlying prejudices that cloud people's opinion of the utility of the caselist and disclosure. The resistance to the caselist is rooted in resistance to the progressive kind of debate you believe it represents. This is evident in your arguments about coaching, large vs small schools, scouting, and such. We'll never be able to instigate these material changes in the Kansas debate community until there is an attitude shift. It may appear to some that the attitude is changing, that we're becoming more accepting of a different style of debate; but threads like this and recent DCI events expose the real prejudices that still exist and are a massive impediment to any kind of change we seek.

 

peace OUT.

 

Smug post is smug.

 

Ok, now you've kind of pissed me off. I was pretty nice to you in my original response even though everything you said pretty much fed my arguments. You outright admitted that you have no idea how to scout and you conceded the fact that there are only about 10 cases on this topic (which is pretty devastating for any "need" for a caselist).. But wait, you have TRUTH on your side. Where were the arguments that you are so proud of that I didn't answer? I see a bunch of anecdotal nonsense about how great your assistant coach is and how you went to a tournament one time and they wouldn't let you scout... but beyond that I'm not sure.

 

Protip: LEARN HOW TO ARGUE, NOT USE ANECDOTES. SUCCESSFUL ARGUMENTS DON'T START WITH "This one time".

 

I'm going to calm down now and resist the urge to make fun of your partner for the time I judged him at DCI and he and his partner didn't answer any of the disads at all in the 2AC... or when he used to post on here like an e e cummings poem... Ok now I'm calm. Ad Homs, not productive.

 

Please don't lump me and Volen together. You don't know anything about me. Don't try and decipher my motives. There is literally like one person in the KS debate community who has judged more high flow rounds than I have (Bryan Dreiling). Time after time all I hear from people like you is how bad this place is, and that's fine... but I had better see you in the back of the room judging after you graduate, because usually I don't. I am all for progress.

Edited by t-money
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Because it is fun. It is clearly not productive, but I poked the bear with the format of my post because that is what I do, and as was predictable the post got flamed, and now I get to stoke more flames for more entertainment.

 

ok, so the first thing he does is admit he's a troll...

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Look, whether or not you support or fervently hate disclosure, putting some very basic stuff on the wiki (check here for my current, very basic version of a neg wiki) can help build the sense of community that the KS circuit seems to lack. Just put on cases that you aren't going to run any more. It gives the illusion that you give a shit, at least. At best, it may lead to a round where the 1NC actually has a coherent strat and (gasp) you may learn something.

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Look, whether or not you support or fervently hate disclosure, putting some very basic stuff on the wiki (check here for my current, very basic version of a neg wiki) can help build the sense of community that the KS circuit seems to lack. Just put on cases that you aren't going to run any more. It gives the illusion that you give a shit, at least. At best, it may lead to a round where the 1NC actually has a coherent strat and (gasp) you may learn something.

 

Uh, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you should not add cases to the wiki that you are not running. It kind of defeats the point, in an incredibly big way. One could argue that that is dishonest at worst and a massive waste of time at best.

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um, alot of Kansas schools actually go to circut tournaments and I'll tell you from experience it really helps. Disclosure allows the neg to have a coherent strategy in the 1nc and believe it or not, its much easier for affs to respond to an organized, well developed 1nc

 

Agreed I still maintain that the caselist helps with being able to answer specific cases. The thing that has mainly gone unnoticed is that there may be only 10 different cases(I don't necessarily believe that, come on we can definetly be more creative,) there are thousands of different ways these "10" cases can be taken and people more often will try to surprise with crazy advantages rather than cases. This is one of the most useful aspects of the caselist and why I strongly support its use. I can say for a fact that the national caselist really helped me at kckcc and I felt bad my aff\neg strategies weren't on there as well. So when I knew there was a Kansas list I knew the benefits the national one had given me, and was among the first people to post my own cases on the wiki. I was hopeful the idea would catch on better than it did last year and maybe it still can; there has been a lot of response on this thread ,albeit from mainly the same people. I suppose i'm just not really sure what the negative to putting already broken strategies on the wiki, and yes I have been reading the other posts I just don't personally find them convincing, probably due to my bias. I also think that the increased knowledge of what people have been running will lead to something equally important, better lay and traditional debate. Love it or hate it this style is and will probably continue to be part of kansas debate. Two specific facts are important her; First traditional debate fans and parents enjoy case debate. Second, the caselist unarguably will provide people the opportunity to be more informed about the case, whether or not people take this chance is not y problem. Too often have I hit tricky affs with a traditonal fan or parent waiting me to disprove the points made in the case, except when I go up to speak I have no specific pieces of evidence on the case, but I can only give a bad t violation, generic allied prolif, a heg da, and a generic counterplan plus a few stupid analytics. I feel like use of the caselist gives the ability for hard working teams to have at least a few case cards these people really want. Btdubs its rough that you and Jenny got your bid taken away Sarah.

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Sure. There was an issue with the tab room at Newton this weekend and it was released that Jenny and I had a bid when we really didn't. It wasn't so much of an issue for me, but it was Jenny's second. It wasn't anyone's fault, but to my understanding there was a committee decision that the bid should be revoked after a day or so of debate.

 

Please know that the DCI committee did not revoke any bids. It is the job of the host tournament to provide the committee with the names of the top 16 teams. The host tournament announced what they thought were the bid-earners, but another team successfully grieved that the bid ought to be theirs. The entire dispute remains at the local level and has nothing to do with the DCI committee.

 

The fact that two (or three) teams wrestled over the 16th bid does not mean that every team who occupied that spot is or was entitled to a bid. The host school has since determined and announced who the 16th team was.

 

The committee decision you mention was whether to offer a 17th bid in light of the confusion. The committee decided unanimously against creating a bid as compensation for pain and suffering. We don't deny that the pain and suffering is evident, we just think that handing out bids for reasons other than those explicitly posted is a very, very bad idea.

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ok, so the first thing he does is admit he's a troll...
Not a troll, but a strong believer in providing a balanced view of change that the inexperienced want to force on the experienced. Before I posted there was quite the little love fest of a bunch of kids thinking they were acting cool and in some cases out right saying they were better than everyone else because they posted their aff on a website. To be fair to them, I attempted, rather successfully I might add, to reveil that their perspective is not universal and that at least acknowledging that they need to do more to try to justify their self congratulation. Some have, most have not, and that is fine. I do find it entertaining to correct the ignorant and to open discussion where there is mindless self congratulation for preaching to the choir. I don't think that makes be a troll, but if it does then you must answer my three questions before you may pass...

 

Look, whether or not you support or fervently hate disclosure, putting some very basic stuff on the wiki (check here for my current, very basic version of a neg wiki) can help build the sense of community that the KS circuit seems to lack. Just put on cases that you aren't going to run any more. It gives the illusion that you give a shit, at least. At best, it may lead to a round where the 1NC actually has a coherent strat and (gasp) you may learn something.
I found your post very interesting. You feel that the Kansas circuit seems to lack a sense of community??? Really? That is interesting. I thought of this when I came to this realization it made me very sad. You don't see the strong sense of community because you see yourself on the outside. That is my theory and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that since your school isn't an NFL school you don't see the sense of community that creates. Being a part of EKNFL is a big deal to me. Being a part of the KCKCFL diocese is a big deal to me. When we go to nationals, I root for all the competitors from our state/area. You haven't and never will share that experience, and that makes me sad. Perhaps this little wiki can replace that feeling for you, and if that is the case, then I wish you well. From my perspective we don't need that because we already feel like a part of something good.

 

The other part that I thought was interesting was your call to post affs that you don't run anymore. I'm completely puzzled on why that would be beneficial for anyone. False disclosure is absolutley bad for "better debates", any education, building of trust within the community, etc. Why on Earth would you call for that. The only potential, hypothetical benefits of disclosure come from letting teams have insight on the possibilities of things you may run. To purposely call for people to post things they intentially will not run in a debate round seems rather destructive.

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Nice of you to explain, Mr. Anderson. But I still want to know what this

 

recent DCI events expose the real prejudices that still exist and are a massive impediment to any kind of change we seek.

 

means.

 

I want to know exactly who is being accused of prejudice, and against whom or what that prejudice is allegedly directed.

 

This is not the sort of comment one gets to make on a public message board and then walk away from.

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Please know that the DCI committee did not revoke any bids. It is the job of the host tournament to provide the committee with the names of the top 16 teams. The host tournament announced what they thought were the bid-earners, but another team successfully grieved that the bid ought to be theirs. The entire dispute remains at the local level and has nothing to do with the DCI committee.

 

The fact that two (or three) teams wrestled over the 16th bid does not mean that every team who occupied that spot is or was entitled to a bid. The host school has since determined and announced who the 16th team was.

 

The committee decision you mention was whether to offer a 17th bid in light of the confusion. The committee decided unanimously against creating a bid as compensation for pain and suffering. We don't deny that the pain and suffering is evident, we just think that handing out bids for reasons other than those explicitly posted is a very, very bad idea.

 

Thank you for clearing this up... I had a different understanding of what happened, and in light of this the decision makes sense.

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Nice of you to explain, Mr. Anderson. But I still want to know what this

 

 

 

means.

 

I want to know exactly who is being accused of prejudice, and against whom or what that prejudice is allegedly directed.

 

This is not the sort of comment one gets to make on a public message board and then walk away from.

 

I think what it clearly means is that she has overtaken her partner as the worst poster on Cross-x.com

 

If I'm Reid, I'm devastated. I mean, he held the belt for what, like 2 years? Say what you want about Reid but he took on all comers... He was certainly a fighting champion. Now he gets stabbed in the back by his own partner.

 

A historic day, this is.

Edited by t-money
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Please know that the DCI committee did not revoke any bids. It is the job of the host tournament to provide the committee with the names of the top 16 teams. The host tournament announced what they thought were the bid-earners, but another team successfully grieved that the bid ought to be theirs. The entire dispute remains at the local level and has nothing to do with the DCI committee.

 

The fact that two (or three) teams wrestled over the 16th bid does not mean that every team who occupied that spot is or was entitled to a bid. The host school has since determined and announced who the 16th team was.

 

The committee decision you mention was whether to offer a 17th bid in light of the confusion. The committee decided unanimously against creating a bid as compensation for pain and suffering. We don't deny that the pain and suffering is evident, we just think that handing out bids for reasons other than those explicitly posted is a very, very bad idea.

 

Well done Mr Anderson. You have executed your part of the plan perfectly.

 

Another victory for the Debate Conspiracy Initiative!

 

MWAHAHAHAHA!

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