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gopal

The NCAA is rapin errbody out here

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Here's a REAL penalty

 

35 scholarship losses per year (i.e. only allowed to have 50 scholarship players)

for a period of five years

 

No post season play. for five years.

No TV revenue. for two years.

 

IF Auburn just closes up shop instead, then the penalty carries over until they restart.

 

You want a death penalty? I'll show you a death penalty. Cheaters beware... and be glad I am not in charge of doling out punishments.

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Rumor has it Auburn might get kicked out of the SEC

 

They could get Southern Methodisted

 

I doubt they go to the full death penalty (even tho these rumored violations are every bit as serious as SMU's) just because they saw what it did to SMU before, but the kind of penalties theyre throwing out could cripple AU financially as a university... not just the AD. And I've heard that SEC rumor too. What I really want to see happen is for Auburn to roll over on all the other SEC schools in order to try to escape the harshest penalties. That would make for some fantastic theater.

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Rumor's that Auburn may lose its accreditation since this scheme and the FBI investigation involved pretty much all of the BoT. I don't know how likely that is... but that would be something else.

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That would make for some fantastic theater.

 

I would love it. Lets put an asterisk next to the entire SEC.

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All I know is we don't let these shady people near the practice facilities.

That and Joe Pa's doghouse is famous. Joe Pa will take the loss if it means he teaches them kids a lesson, even if it means he benches his starters. that just means more game-reps for the younger, less seasoned backups.

 

That and most shady people associated with agents probably get lost on the way to happy valley.

 

Remembered this conversation from a few years ago. had to come back. Ankur was a fun poster but mannn o man was he convinced of the purity of Penn State football.

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Here's a REAL penalty

 

35 scholarship losses per year (i.e. only allowed to have 50 scholarship players)

for a period of five years

 

No post season play. for five years.

No TV revenue. for two years.

 

IF Auburn just closes up shop instead, then the penalty carries over until they restart.

 

You want a death penalty? I'll show you a death penalty. Cheaters beware... and be glad I am not in charge of doling out punishments.

 

His beloved Pennsylvania State didn't even get this much

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You worry about MSU.

 

I have no worries about Penn State.

 

We are one of the few 1-A schools which has NEVER had a major infraction.

 

Integrity - the cornerstone of the program. Also why JoePa's famed doghouse is a bad place to be.

 

....

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If you're just trying to get a rise out of me, try again. I am also not gone.

 

But here is the truth of the matter - Penn State was, is, and always will be a magical place.

 

1) I still consider Penn State infractionless because the NCAA is overstepping its bounds right now. Nothing about this situation is a football scandal. It doesn't involve boosters, or agents. It doesn't involve tattoos or cars or under the table payments. It has nothing to do with trying to gain an unfair competitive edge to win - which are the ONLY mandates the NCAA possesses. Penn State's Erikson accepted the penalty without appeal because it would be politically unsavory to do otherwise.

 

2) No part of Joe Paterno's football history has changed, even if there are vacated wins. The Grand Experiment is a success. You CAN field a competitive team of academics. Penn State did not cheat to win - unlike USC, Ohio State, Oregon, Florida State, Miami, Texas, Auburn, Alabama, UNC, Kentucky, SMU, Oklahoma, and so on... though I agree with the decision to remove the statue but keep the library. They still have the 2nd highest graduation rate in history and still consistently fielded a competitive team.

 

I'm sad for the victims of Sandusky. I am sad that Paterno couldn't realize that the surest way to protect the Grand Experiment was to assure the world that integrity came before football in non-football matters as well. I am sad that Spanier, Schultz, and Curley didn't have the moral courage to stand up for what is right. I am sad that the cops didn't press for an indictment in 1998. I am sad that the district attorney closed the file prematurely. I am sad that Tom Corbett has his hands in anything because he thinks misappropriation of a few dollars is more important than a child molester/rapist. I am sad that people put their own ambitions before the welfare of others.

 

But here are some things that this scandal won't change - but the NCAA sanctions might:

  • Penn State raised $10 million dollars for pediatric cancer last year alone ($88 million to date). Thon is the largest student run philanthropy in the world...
  • Penn State football players have raised over $600,000 for kidney cancer and founded uplifting athletes, a program starting lift-for-life programs benefitting the research of orphan diseases.
  • Penn State researchers have over 700 patents, several of which are considered pivotal and groundbreaking in food science, agricultural science, engineering and healthcare.
  • Penn State is still the number one most sought after degree as claimed by recruiters at all levels of industry and non-profits.

But hey, you know, Penn State is evil. They should just close up shop and nuke the place - spark style.

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I am with you in a lot of ways. I just think in the age of Tiger Woods and Joe Paterno it is silly to think we know anything about these people. I am not really familiar with all of the by-laws and all that so I won't pretend to really engage you there. But I believe that this was swept under the rug because these people felt like if it got out then the football program would be damaged. They were right. Penn State made a lot of money and perpetuated a terrible crime by letting Sandusky hang around, use their facilities for his camps, etc.

 

and penn state isnt the only college that does good things for people, or embraces academics. Im glad paterno cared so much for the kids on his football teams.

 

i didnt know you were still around, either. hope all is well

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I am with you in a lot of ways. I just think in the age of Tiger Woods and Joe Paterno it is silly to think we know anything about these people. I am not really familiar with all of the by-laws and all that so I won't pretend to really engage you there. But I believe that this was swept under the rug because these people felt like if it got out then the football program would be damaged. They were right. Penn State made a lot of money and perpetuated a terrible crime by letting Sandusky hang around, use their facilities for his camps, etc.

 

and penn state isnt the only college that does good things for people, or embraces academics. Im glad paterno cared so much for the kids on his football teams.

 

i didnt know you were still around, either. hope all is well

 

thanks. all is well. i earned my latest degree, a doctorate. living life and enjoying it. hope the same for you.

 

I disagree. I think the Penn State program and Joe Paterno could have survived the revelation of having a monster in their midst. If it was reported right away, there would be no scandal - it would be one despicable pathetic excuse for a human being perpetrating heinous acts. The NCAA would never have gotten involved because it would have been reported and people would have gotten busy doing the right things. Fewer boys would have been molested at Sundusky's hands and just maybe Penn State might have worked to elevate awareness back then so similar things dont happen elsewhere. I think that if Joe Paterno had openly turned Sandusky into the cops he would have had the ultimate moral standing because he could have said "see. I turned in a staff member and friend of 30+ years"

 

And I agree that not every campus is driven by sports and a culture of winning at all costs. But Penn State was THE pinnacle of purity AND height of success. And I agree that there are strong academics elsewhere.

 

But the NCAA sanctions today and possibly the Dept of Education sanctions later will tear it all down. Everything good about Penn State will be washed away with the bad if the lynch mob has its way... and from the looks of things, the lynch mob is winning.

 

And that makes me sad for the thousands and millions of people who will be irreparably harmed by this absurd concept of vengeance in place of justice.

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i guess i wasnt clear. They all should have voiced their concerns when Sandusky went into early retirement, and yea it would have been good for the university and they could have had the moral high ground. But they just wanted it to go away and pretend it didnt happen.

 

On October 27 Penn State was informed of the Grand Jury report on Sandusky. On October 29 Sandusky watched a Penn State football game from the Nittany Lion club. It is just insane to me, and I think you lose the ability to call Happy Valley pure

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1) I still consider Penn State infractionless because the NCAA is overstepping its bounds right now. Nothing about this situation is a football scandal. It doesn't involve boosters, or agents. It doesn't involve tattoos or cars or under the table payments. It has nothing to do with trying to gain an unfair competitive edge to win - which are the ONLY mandates the NCAA possesses. Penn State's Erikson accepted the penalty without appeal because it would be politically unsavory to do otherwise.

So we should punish schools that allow their players to sell stuff that those players own (OSU), but we shouldn't punish covering up child rape?

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i guess i wasnt clear. They all should have voiced their concerns when Sandusky went into early retirement, and yea it would have been good for the university and they could have had the moral high ground. But they just wanted it to go away and pretend it didnt happen.

 

On October 27 Penn State was informed of the Grand Jury report on Sandusky. On October 29 Sandusky watched a Penn State football game from the Nittany Lion club. It is just insane to me, and I think you lose the ability to call Happy Valley pure

 

I don't think that happy valley is pure. A lot of obviously impure things have gone on. Asst DA Gricar disappeared mysteriously (and he was one of the people looking into Sandusky in the 1998 incident), and so did Cindy Song, a student on Halloween of 2001 (if I remember correctly). But I would say that overall, from a competitive aspect, Penn State has not cheated to win. Obviously, laws have been broken and the guilty parties will pay for these crimes, but they never broke the NCAA rules with respect to competition.

 

And its a miserable situation all around... mostly for the victims.

 

 

So we should punish schools that allow their players to sell stuff that those players own (OSU), but we shouldn't punish covering up child rape?

 

I never said you shouldn't punish people for covering up a child rape, only that punishing the football team is not driven out of justice, but vengeance. OSU was openly flouting NCAA rules in order to achieve a competitive advantage. When one school is willing to pay top players and another is not, guess where those top players are going to go play? I'll give you a hint - its not Penn State. I don't particularly enjoy retroactive punishments against innocent players because we all know it doesn't really serve as a deterrent, but I can see the argument that the team was breaking the rules, thus the team gets penalized regardless of who is on it at the time of the punishment. But I would agree that most NCAA punishments to date were a pathetic joke. Losing a few scholarships here and there is trivial at best. The best way to stop competitive cheating in the NCAA is to make penalties carry over to the NFL regardless of when they occur or are levvied. If Reggie Bush would say, lose two years of NFL playing time, salary, his Heisman, and be fined for conduct detrimental to the team, you can bet your bottom dollar he never would have taken the risk of taking freebies in college. Of course, the NFL would never agree because they are a business who doesn't care about the business of college football any more than they care about FedEx or Mentos, the freshmaker... but it would be the best way to solve things.

 

But nothing about the Sandusky scandal is a football scandal any more than Enron was an "energy" scandal. Its a scandal of four men covering up a heinous crime to protect their jobs, reputations, and legacies. This isn't a "Penn State" scandal any more than it is Philadelphia or Pennsylvania or United States scandal. The men in charge weren't trying to protect the football program - they were protecting themselves and wishing it would all just go away. You can't feed a squirrel and expect it to leave your yard. Any idiot who can add 2+2 can figure out that the program which is one of the winningest in all of college sports, with a 110,000 person stadium sporting one of college football's craziest atmospheres, a fiercely loyal and generous fanbase, a track record of sending players to the NFL and world class facilities could have withstood the revelation of a monster in its midst if it was done immediately in 1998, or at worst in 2001. They could have stormed back harder than ever from it if things were handled properly way back then... and the PR damage would have been minimal - no worse than whats his face at Arkansas for an improper relationship with a grad assistant.

 

End result, the 4 men in charge screwed the pooch. They let more kids get abused, a school take the downfall, and a football team that had not even the slightest knowledge of the scandal, will be evicerated. If it was determined that in 1962, Duke basketball coaches killed a hooker and buried her body in a tobacco field, should the current team be banned? It makes no sense because killing a hooker has nothing to do with basketball even if it were basketball coaches who did the crime.

 

I mean hell, even Mitch Albom, best selling author and world reknowned do-gooder basically stated in not as few words that the NCAA got it wrong.

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I haven't been following the Penn State issue that closely, so correct me if anything I say is wrong.

 

By reporting Sandusky, Penn State would have lost a very big booster, which would be bad for the program. So by engaging in illegal activities, they were gaining an unfair advantage in a way. This may not seem like a big advantage, but I doubt many players were convinced to go to Ohio State by the argument that "You'll get free tattoos!", so the magnitude of the advantage doesn't seem relevant to the NCAA.

 

You say the scandal was "four men covering up a heinous crime to protect their jobs, reputations, and legacies", but there was only one person whose job, reputation and legacy was at stake, and that's Sandusky. If anyone had reported him when they should have, there would be no scandal. Instead, they allowed child rape, and for what? Friendship and money?

 

I agree that this isn't fair to players currently on the team, but that's a problem with team-wide sanctions anywhere. For example, the OSU players that didn't sell/barter their jerseys were punished for something that they didn't do and possibly didn't even know about. That's a shitty but unavoidable part of the sanctions process.

 

Edit: I just watched the NCAA sanctions video and the athletes are actually fine. They can transfer to another program with no penalty, or they can stop playing football, but keep their scholarships.

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I haven't been following the Penn State issue that closely, so correct me if anything I say is wrong.

 

By reporting Sandusky, Penn State would have lost a very big booster, which would be bad for the program. So by engaging in illegal activities, they were gaining an unfair advantage in a way. This may not seem like a big advantage, but I doubt many players were convinced to go to Ohio State by the argument that "You'll get free tattoos!", so the magnitude of the advantage doesn't seem relevant to the NCAA.

 

You say the scandal was "four men covering up a heinous crime to protect their jobs, reputations, and legacies", but there was only one person whose job, reputation and legacy was at stake, and that's Sandusky. If anyone had reported him when they should have, there would be no scandal. Instead, they allowed child rape, and for what? Friendship and money?

 

I agree that this isn't fair to players currently on the team, but that's a problem with team-wide sanctions anywhere. For example, the OSU players that didn't sell/barter their jerseys were punished for something that they didn't do and possibly didn't even know about. That's a shitty but unavoidable part of the sanctions process.

 

Edit: I just watched the NCAA sanctions video and the athletes are actually fine. They can transfer to another program with no penalty, or they can stop playing football, but keep their scholarships.

 

Losing Sandusky as a booster is a drop in the bucket. You cant possibly count the number of big time boosters Penn State has lined up to give them money every year. Its kinda sick in a really odd way in that sense. You have to realize that Pennsylvania is the largest state with basically one meaningful college sports team. We have the largest dues-paying alumni association in the world. Its in the water.... er... ice cream. Its not a "competitive advantage" to cover up Sandusky by ANY stretch of the imagination. Its not that players went to Ohio State for the tattoos. They went because they were getting handouts. Terrell Pryor was choosing between Penn State and Ohio State and he chose the school that gave him a free car, "heating bill payments" that amounted to thousands of dollars for his mother (heating bills. right). And he isnt the first or the last to get handouts at Ohio State. The last time a player took a handout at Penn State was Curtis Enis - and he took a suit, shirt and tie from an agent because he didn't have one to wear on a televised sports awards banquet.... and when it was discovered, Joe Pa suspended him for his last game as a player, a bowl game. What a way to go out eh?

 

If you think Paterno was the only big fish in that pool, thats just because you don't know the other fish. Graham Spanier was the, if not one of the, top university administrators in the country. He served on MANY NCAA committees as well as chairing them and even chaired the BCS committee. He was wildly popular in the administrator circles and people really listened to him. Curley had an absurdly long tenure, largely created by Paterno... but given the overall success of the Penn State athletic program, the strong management of it, and the facilities which are hard to beat, he had a lot of clout. Shultz is the only no-namer in the bunch. But he's a lemming anyway, so it didn't matter.

 

I agree that OSU as a team getting penalties sucks. But OSU players broke the rules, not students. The OSU teammates broke the rules, not professors. There is a fundamental difference here - the OSU players were guilty of breaking the rules while the Penn State players had ZERO clue of what was happening and did NOTHING wrong. It would be a lot like the IRS auditing your parents, finding them guilty of tax evasion and then stating that their child (you) should have to pay a penalty of 1 billion percent spread out over the rest of your life.... because... well, you're their son/daughter. Double you tee eff? So while I don't like giving OSU punishments, I can see and understand the basis for them. There is absolutely NO basis for penalizing the Penn State football team... since not a single one of them did so much as jaywalk.

 

The team is NOT fine - they lose 10 scholarships a year, thats a 40% reduction. They can't play in a bowl game. They aren't allowed to win the Big Ten championship or play in that game. There is nothing about this which is "fair"

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Losing Sandusky as a booster is a drop in the bucket. You cant possibly count the number of big time boosters Penn State has lined up to give them money every year. Its kinda sick in a really odd way in that sense. You have to realize that Pennsylvania is the largest state with basically one meaningful college sports team. We have the largest dues-paying alumni association in the world. Its in the water.... er... ice cream. Its not a "competitive advantage" to cover up Sandusky by ANY stretch of the imagination. Its not that players went to Ohio State for the tattoos. They went because they were getting handouts. Terrell Pryor was choosing between Penn State and Ohio State and he chose the school that gave him a free car, "heating bill payments" that amounted to thousands of dollars for his mother (heating bills. right). And he isnt the first or the last to get handouts at Ohio State. The last time a player took a handout at Penn State was Curtis Enis - and he took a suit, shirt and tie from an agent because he didn't have one to wear on a televised sports awards banquet.... and when it was discovered, Joe Pa suspended him for his last game as a player, a bowl game. What a way to go out eh?

 

If you think Paterno was the only big fish in that pool, thats just because you don't know the other fish. Graham Spanier was the, if not one of the, top university administrators in the country. He served on MANY NCAA committees as well as chairing them and even chaired the BCS committee. He was wildly popular in the administrator circles and people really listened to him. Curley had an absurdly long tenure, largely created by Paterno... but given the overall success of the Penn State athletic program, the strong management of it, and the facilities which are hard to beat, he had a lot of clout. Shultz is the only no-namer in the bunch. But he's a lemming anyway, so it didn't matter.

 

I agree that OSU as a team getting penalties sucks. But OSU players broke the rules, not students. The OSU teammates broke the rules, not professors. There is a fundamental difference here - the OSU players were guilty of breaking the rules while the Penn State players had ZERO clue of what was happening and did NOTHING wrong. It would be a lot like the IRS auditing your parents, finding them guilty of tax evasion and then stating that their child (you) should have to pay a penalty of 1 billion percent spread out over the rest of your life.... because... well, you're their son/daughter. Double you tee eff? So while I don't like giving OSU punishments, I can see and understand the basis for them. There is absolutely NO basis for penalizing the Penn State football team... since not a single one of them did so much as jaywalk.

 

The team is NOT fine - they lose 10 scholarships a year, thats a 40% reduction. They can't play in a bowl game. They aren't allowed to win the Big Ten championship or play in that game. There is nothing about this which is "fair"

 

Ok so why did so many people cover this up? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I seriously don't understand. Was it just that their friendship to a child rapist was that important?

 

 

Also the IRS analogy is pretty messed up. Besides the fact that 1 billion dollars is obviously a hyperbole, the athletes are not being punished very much. A better example would be the IRS auditing my employer, finding them guilty of tax evasion, and then allowing me to transfer to another employer or keep getting paid by my original employer even though I'm no longer working. Seriously the top Penn State players can play somewhere else with no penalty and still get their shot at the NFL. The players that weren't good enough for the NFL anyway now get a scholarship without needing to do anything to maintain it. That's a great deal.

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Ok so why did so many people cover this up? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I seriously don't understand. Was it just that their friendship to a child rapist was that important?

 

 

Also the IRS analogy is pretty messed up. Besides the fact that 1 billion dollars is obviously a hyperbole, the athletes are not being punished very much. A better example would be the IRS auditing my employer, finding them guilty of tax evasion, and then allowing me to transfer to another employer or keep getting paid by my original employer even though I'm no longer working. Seriously the top Penn State players can play somewhere else with no penalty and still get their shot at the NFL. The players that weren't good enough for the NFL anyway now get a scholarship without needing to do anything to maintain it. That's a great deal.

 

Why does anyone cover anything up? Because they are afraid for themselves. Selfish actions, especially with regards to self-preservation, are generally the root of all bad decisions. You have to look at it from the perspective of what they gained by keeping it quiet for eternity. If it never got out, what would anyone have gained? Paterno would go down as a football saint. Curley would go down as a great AD. Spanier would go down as one of the most powerful administrators ever. And their legacies were all intertwined. But even as the one email bore out, they agreed that the only downside was if someone found out about keeping it secret.

 

Forget what its doing to the players or the team for a moment. Of course the IRS analogy is hyperbole... but it doesn't make it any less true. And I chose it for a specific reason. Why should you be required to pay a single penny, let alone 1 billion percent, when you didn't commit the crime of tax evasion? Just because you are your parents' child? So blood relationship is enough to convict you of a crime you had no knowledge of, no control over and no ability to prevent or remedy? Is that not the same thing happening here? Many of these football players were in diapers when Sandusky was committing his crimes on campus. What is the NCAA or the court of public opinion really saying here? That they should have thrown their rattle toys at Sandusky? Created a trail of poo from their leaky diapers that led the cops to Sandusky's door? The first question to ask yourself is why is the football team paying any penalty whatsoever? The loss of even one scholarship is already the same as intentionally and willfully punishing innocent people. For some silly reason, I was under the impression that we didn't live in a facist country. Apparently, I was wrong.

 

Now, even if the effect on any one single individual player is minimal, the effect on the team is crippling at best. Football isnt an individual sport, its a team sport. USC is on the brink of stealing our prized running back who is two steps shy of breaking out on a Heisman-type season. Texas is on the brink of stealing our first team all-conference kicker. Other top players are considering leaving. So what does that do for the rest of the squad? It makes them worse and turns a competitive program into a 1-aa program. How is that fair to the fans, alumni, and most of all the current players who all signed on to play for a squad they believed in and thought could compete on the biggest stage? The NCAA's objective of demphasizing winning at any cost is to make winning the only way out for the team?

 

The depth of the NCAA's virtriol is demonstrated best by the penalties they levvied against Paterno individually. They vacated his wins back to 1998 which is the time when the first incident was reported... and investigated fully by the police... with the police and district attorney's agreeing there was no crime which took place or minimally, not enough evidence of a crime to arraign. So while neither I nor anyone else believes that no crime occurred in retrospect, we live in a world in which you are innocent until proven guilty. Based on all evidence, the NCAA is holding Paterno responsible for not acting on an innocent man in 1998. Does that come close to making sense? I may or may not agree with but can understand vacating wins back to 2001. But this NCAA action is not delivering justice - its about exacting vengeance on a man they despised.

 

And then we get to the strong arm tactics used by the NCAA. They basically told Penn State, either we shut you down for four years and make it so that you will never play football competitively ever again... or you take this other draconian punishment which makes no sense but makes us feel better. Those strong arm tactics are abhorrent in every sense. So what? Criminals should tell their victims "if you let me rape you, I promise I won't kill you"... and thats okay? Your parents telling you at the age of 12 "you have to pay for your food, clothing, roof, and personal expenses yourself... but hey... at least we didn't make you an orphan!" Really? The NCAA solution is instead of letting the courts decide on legal matters... "we're just going to handle this internally". Apparently, the NCAA went to the Spanier school of justice.

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