Jump to content
NinjaSamurai

Ground Zero Mosque

Recommended Posts

I'm confused....as are most people on this issue

We would do better here without your meaningless, confused posts just as we would better without the idiotic haranguing of most people on this issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Still not sure about what you're trying to say.

 

1. it won't be at ground zero. when it comes to manhattan, a lot can happen in two block. you socio-geographically ignorant fool. if you are upset about the mosque you should be upset about the porn shops & hot dog stands around the corner.

 

2. only stupids like palin would see this as an issue. why? because she has no idea what a diverse city looks like & how it functions -- which gives her the liberty to read into things & spin it for political gain. this is highlighted by that fact that "manhattanites are mostly for it." the people who are here, who saw the towers fall, who lost friends and family & breathed in the rubble, who cringed every time a plane flew overhead for months after -- are okay with it. so wtf is your problem?

 

3. the man behind the "mosque" (more like cultural center/ ymca type place that will probably benefit the community -- regardless of faith.) not only is cool with america but cool enough that the f.b.i employs him for sensitivity training. which makes all these claims of the "terrorist funding & approval" of the joint seem SURPRISE! like manipulative language for political gain rather than statements based in some more legitimate cause for alarm.

 

4. your convoluted statements that try to mask an underlying yet definitive sentiment of intolerance is Un-American.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

WisPolitics reports:

 

Asked where he comes down on the proposal to build a mosque and community center near the site of the World Trade Center attacks, Feingold said it's tragic there isn't a proper memorial at the site.

 

"It's just wrong after all these years that there isn't that kind of memorial," he said.

 

Feingold said those who are looking to use the issue as a political wedge are guilty of "gutter politics" and "one of the worst things I've ever seen done in politics."

 

"In the end I believe in freedom of religion," he said. "If somebody owns property and it's within the zoning rules, if they want to build a house of worship that is a fundamental right. And I would make the point I am for freedom on this point, and freedom of religion is fundamental."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Betty...

 

1. Gee..right..two blocks away, and on the site where the landing gear of one of the planes ended up. I have never said it would be on Ground Zero directly. And, who says I'm not upset about the other things?

 

2> I think around 61% of the American people are upset about this issue. NOT over the right of the Mosque's backers to build the Mosque, but over the location, so, unless you're saying that 61% of America is like Sarah Palin, this is not a good argument. And, according to the New York Times. According to Sienna College's recent poll, 63% of New York voters oppose the center http://www.siena.edu/SRI/SNY

 

3. As I've said, I dont' know the guy - all I know is he's a divisive figure in the sense that some say he's a good guy with nothing agains the US, etc. Others say he's radical. That is all I've said about him. I'm hoping it's the former, not the latter. I think it's interesting that when the project's finance officer was asked if the Mosque would accept donations from Saudi Arabia or Iran they said they could not comment. http://abcnews.go.com/US/Politics/islamic-center-backers-rule-taking-funds-saudi-arabia/story?id=11429998 This is very interesting to me.

 

4. Since when is dissent not American? From 2001 to 2008 all I heard was that dissent was the sole marker of patriotism, now you tell me dissent is not patriotic?? I'm confused. I support their right to build the mosque, but I don't think it's a good idea to build it where it's going. I think the downsides outweigh the upsides.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Betty...

 

1. Gee..right..two blocks away, and on the site where the landing gear of one of the planes ended up. I have never said it would be on Ground Zero directly. And, who says I'm not upset about the other things?

 

2> I think around 61% of the American people are upset about this issue. NOT over the right of the Mosque's backers to build the Mosque, but over the location, so, unless you're saying that 61% of America is like Sarah Palin, this is not a good argument. And, according to the New York Times. According to Sienna College's recent poll, 63% of New York voters oppose the center http://www.siena.edu/SRI/SNY

 

3. As I've said, I dont' know the guy - all I know is he's a divisive figure in the sense that some say he's a good guy with nothing agains the US, etc. Others say he's radical. That is all I've said about him. I'm hoping it's the former, not the latter. I think it's interesting that when the project's finance officer was asked if the Mosque would accept donations from Saudi Arabia or Iran they said they could not comment. http://abcnews.go.com/US/Politics/islamic-center-backers-rule-taking-funds-saudi-arabia/story?id=11429998 This is very interesting to me.

 

4. Since when is dissent not American? From 2001 to 2008 all I heard was that dissent was the sole marker of patriotism, now you tell me dissent is not patriotic?? I'm confused. I support their right to build the mosque, but I don't think it's a good idea to build it where it's going. I think the downsides outweigh the upsides.

 

I love how all your arguments are "I am stupid as everyone else. I didn't say he's a radical terrorist, others did. You might say he works for the FBI, but some say he rapes children. Two sides to a story, I guess I'll take them both at face value. HO HUM."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I love how all your arguments are "I am stupid as everyone else. I didn't say he's a radical terrorist, others did. You might say he works for the FBI, but some say he rapes children. Two sides to a story, I guess I'll take them both at face value. HO HUM."

 

and you voted for a nigger.

 

 

I WIN THE RACE TO THE BOTTOM~!!!!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Retired: My argument all along has been they have the right to build it, but just because you have a right to do X, doesn't make doing X wise. As for the rest - I'm just using evidence to show that the general public is just as confused about hte situation as I am. I admire your sense of rightness!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

4. Since when is dissent not American? From 2001 to 2008 all I heard was that dissent was the sole marker of patriotism, now you tell me dissent is not patriotic?? I'm confused.

 

It's not DISSENT that's unamerican, it's your desire to sacrifice the economic and religious rights of a developer to build a community center AND mosque (on HIS property, NOT the city's) on the altar of public opinion. Dissent is fine, the desire to oppress inner difference is unamerican. We were founded because of freedom of religion, and Islam was actually highly tolerated by the founding fathers as a religion of peace. DO. NOT. Conflate all of Islam with radical jihadism.

 

I support their right to build the mosque, but I don't think it's a good idea to build it where it's going. I think the downsides outweigh the upsides.

 

If you support the right, why are we even talking? this shouldn't be a discussion. Go talk to the developer or something.

Also, sidenote: If they're not allowed to build a mosque (not saying you're saying they have no right, but some people in this thread have been) then why is Silverstein allowed to turn the actual 9/11 site into.... another office building instead of a memorial like he promised?

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

There is, in fact, no " Ground Zero mosque."

 

TRANSCRIPT--

 

OLBERMANN: "They came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for me and by that time no one was left to speak up." Pastor Martin Niemoller's words are well known but their context is not well understood. Niemoller was not speaking abstractly. He witnessed persecution, he acquiesced to it, he ultimately fell victim to it. He had been a German World War 1 hero, then a conservative who welcomed the fall of German democracy and the rise of Hitler and had few qualms the beginning of the Holocaust until he himself was arrested for supporting it insufficiently.

 

Niemoller's confessional warning came in a speech in Frankfurt in January, 1946, eight months after he was liberated by American troops. He had been detained at Tyrol, Sachsen-Hausen and Dachau for seven years. Niemoller survived the death camps. In quoting him, I make no direct comparison between the attempts to suppress the building of a Muslim religious center in downtown Manhattan and the unimaginable nightmare of the Holocaust. Such a comparison is ludicrous. At least it is, now.

 

But Niemoller was not warning of the Holocaust. He was warning of the willingness of a seemingly rational society to condone the gradual stoking of enmity towards an ethnic or religious group warning of the building-up of a collective pool of national fear and hate, warning of the moment in which the need to purge outstrips even the parameters of the original scape-goating, when new victims are needed because a country has begun to run on a horrible fuel of hatred, magnified, amplified, multiplied by politicians and zealots, within government and without. Niemoller was not warning of the Holocaust. He was warning of the thousand steps before a Holocaust became inevitable. If we are at just the first of those steps again today, here, it is one step too close.

 

Yet, in a country dedicated to freedom, forces have gathered to blow out of all proportion the construction of a minor community center; to transform it into a training ground for terrorists and an insult to the victims of 9/11 and a tribute to medieval Muslim subjugation of the West. There is no training ground for terrorists. There is no insult to the victims of 9/11. There is no tribute to medieval Muslim subjugation of the West. There is, in fact, no " Ground Zero mosque." It isn't a mosque. A mosque, technically, is a Muslim holy place in which only worship can be conducted. What is planned for 45 Park Place, New York City, is a Community Center. It's supposed to include a basketball court and a culinary school. It's to be thirteen stories tall and the top two stories will be a Muslim prayer space.

 

What a cauldron of terrorism that will be: terrorist chefs and terrorist point guards. And truly those will use the center have more to fear from us than us from them. For there has been terrorism connected to a mosque in this country this year. May 10th., Jacksonville, Florida; a pipe bomb at the Islamic Center of Northeast Florida. The FBI thinks the man in this surveillance video could be the bomber. It went off during evening prayers, and it was powerful enough to send shrapnel flying 100 yards. Fortunately, the bomber didn't know where to place it, so the 60 Muslim worshipers were uninjured. If he'd put it inside and not outside, they'd have been dead. And you probably would've heard about it on the news. Or maybe not.

 

Maybe those exploiting 45 Park Place would still shake their fists and decry terrorism by extremists who happen to be Muslim, and never face the shameful truth about our country: as the Jacksonville mosque bombing shows, since Sept. 11, Muslims have been at far greater risk of being victims of terrorism in the United States than have non- Muslims. But back to this Islamic Center. Its name, Cordoba House, is not a tribute to medieval Muslim subjugation of Spain. Newt Gingrich has been pushing that nonsense that " Cordoba" is a Muslim dog-whistle for "triumphalism." "It refers to Cordoba, Spain, the capital of Muslim conquerors who symbolized their victory over the Christian Spaniards by transforming a church there into the world's third-largest mosque complex. Today, some of the mosque's backers insist this term is being used to 'symbolize interfaith co-operation' when, in fact, every Islamist in the world recognizes Cordoba as a symbol of Islamic conquest." Those "Muslim conquerors" are a figment of Mr. Gingrich's lurid imagination. In Spain, in Cordoba, though the Muslims established multi- cultural, non-denominational institutions of learning, they were under constant attack from Christians, and from a series of internal all- Muslim Civil Wars. The Muslims lost Cordoba, and the Christian church they transformed into the "world's third-largest mosque complex?" It was turned back into a Christian Cathedral in the 13th Century. And it has been that, ever since.

 

And is there not a logical extension to Mr. Gingrich's conclusions about Cordoba and "triumphalism?" Virtually every church, every synagogue, indeed every mosque built on this continent stands where a Native American lived, or died, or was buried, or saw his world, his religions included, wiped out, by us. What are we then, Mr. Gingrich? And by the way, a point Mr. Gingrich has not even whispered as he has shouted fire in a crowded theater: when the historical implications of Cordoba were made clear to the backers of this project, the property developer, Sharif Gamal, changed the name. They already compromised. "We are calling it Park 51 because of the backlash to the name Cordoba House," he told the " Financial Times." "It will be a place open to all New Yorkers and that is a very New York name." A very New York name. Like " Ground Zero." Except this place, Park 51, is not even at Ground Zero, not even 'right across the street.' Even the description of it being "two blocks away" is generous.

 

It is two blocks away from the northeast corner of the World Trade Center site. From the planned location of the 9/11 memorial, it is more like four or even five blocks. You know what is right across the street? I went there yesterday to refresh my sense of the World Trade Center, in which I worked nearly 30 years ago. At Church and Veezy, so close that the barbed wire of Ground Zero obscures its spire? St Paul's Chapel. Been there since 1766, where Washington went the day he was inaugurated, where the first responders came for relief nine years ago. You know what's also closer to Ground Zero than this Muslim Community Center? Church of St. Peter, at Church and Barclay Streets. As the sign says, New York's Oldest Catholic Parish. People hear " Ground Zero Mosque" and they think Mecca in the backyard and a loud call to prayer and they take umbrage. "We got no more than a few inches of skin and a couple of pieces of bone. Ground Zero is the burial place of my son," said Joyce Boland at the public hearing about the Center. "I don't want to go there and see an overwhelming mosque looking down at me." I honor her pain, and her fear, but Mrs. Boland has nothing to worry about. Unless she walks directly to it, she'll never see it. This is what you see from where the Center will be. Another nondescript building across the street. This building and others like it will block views of the Trade Center, and views from the Trade Center. It certainly will stand out on the north side of Park Place, but amid the canyons of lower Manhattan, it'll just be a distinctive building that if you happen to wander down a side street near the Trade Center, you might see. You know what you'll see there now? This, the Burlington Coat Factory, abandoned since 2001 when the landing gear from one of the planes fell 90 stories and went through the roof. For nine years, nobody's been willing to buy that building, just to knock it down and build a new one. It sold for four million 850 thousand dollars. In New York City real estate, that is spare change. And you know why it's spare change? Because walk around Ground Zero any day of the week and it's packed, with tourists and our version of pilgrims. But walk two and three blocks away and not so packed. Not packed at all. Empty stores. Boarded-up windows. Nine years later, and two and three blocks from the action and it's a ghost town. What was that about government not getting in the way of private business? What was that about letting the private sector spur new jobs in blighted areas? Oh, and what was that about Iraq? Why did we go into Iraq, again? I don't mean the real reasons or the naked, vengeful blindness that enabled the forging of a nonexistent connection between Iraq and 9/11. I mean, the official explanation: to free the world, and especially Iraq's citizens, of the tyranny of Saddam Hussein. That's its supporters' defense of the invasion, to this hour. Well, who lives in Iraq? Muslims. I hate to reveal this to anybody on the Right who didn't know this, but when they say Iraq is 65 percent Shia and 32 percent Sunni, you do know that Shia and Sunni are both forms of the Muslim religion, right? We sacrificed 4,415 of our military personnel in Iraq to save Muslims, and there are thousands still there tonight to protect Muslims, but we don't want Muslims to open a combination culinary school and prayer space in Manhattan?

 

From the beginning of this nation, we have fought prejudice and religious intolerance and our greatest enemy: stupidity, exploited by rapacious politicians. It's just 50 years now since Americans publicly and urgently warned their country-men not to support a Presidential candidate because he was a Roman Catholic. He would bow to the will not of the American people, but the Pope. He would be a "Papist." He would be the agent of a foreign state. His name was John Fitzgerald Kennedy. Despite the nobility of our founding and the indefatigable efforts of all our generations, there have always been those who would happily sacrifice our freedoms, our principles, to ward off the latest unprecedented threat, the latest unbeatable outsiders. Once again, at 45 Park Place, we are being told to sell our birth-right, to feed the maw of xenophobia and vengeance and mob rule. The terrorists who destroyed the buildings from which you could only see 45 Park Place as a dot on the ground wanted to force us to change our country to become more like the ones they knew. What better way could we honor the dead of the World Trade Center than to do the terrorists' heavy lifting for them? And do you think 45 Park Place is where it ends? The moment this monstrous betrayal of our America gained the slightest traction, the next goal was unveiled. 'No more building permits for any mosques in this country,' brayed a man from the euphemistically-named " American Families Association." Of course, he said, maybe the permits could be granted if the congregation, quote, "was willing to publicly renounce the Koran." "They came first for the building permits." But back to Downtown. Does the name " Masjid-Manhattan" mean anything to you? Let me take you, in conclusion, to 20 Warren Street. Not much to look at, not from across the street, not from up close. That open door is the only thing that distinguishes it from the rest of the grill-fronts of the neighborhood.

 

That, and the yellow sign there: "Entrance To Islamic Center." It's in the basement. It is a Muslim house of worship, Masjid-Manhattan. It lost its lease in a larger building down the street, two years ago. The new facility is so small that only about 20 percent of worshipers can use it, at a time. But " Masjid-Manhattan" opened in early 1970. Four blocks away, the World Trade Center opened, in December 1970. The actual place that is the real-life equivalent of the paranoid dream contained in the phrase " Ground Zero Mosque," has been up and running, since before there was a World Trade Center, and for nine years since there has been a World Trade Center. Running, without controversy, without incident, without terrorism, without protest. Because this is America, damn it. And in America, when somebody comes for your neighbor, or his Bible, or his Torah, or his Atheists' Manifesto, or his Koran, you and I do what our fathers did, and our grandmothers did, and our founders did; you and speak up. Good night and good luck.

Edited by The Gender Bender

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
...just because you have a right to do X, doesn't make doing X wise...

Having a right to do something unwise applies more directly to the moronic bigots who oppose the building of Park51 because they are too stupid to think beyond "Islam = Terrorism." They have a right to bitch about it, but they're decidedly "unwise" for doing so. And this isn't neo-Nazis marching through Skokie or Westboro protesting funerals; it's a mainstream religious group setting up a community center with a prayer room blocks from Ground Zero (anyone who thinks blocks aren't significant has clearly never lived in a city). Caving into the sensitivities of a brainwashed, easily manipulated, fear-driven, generally Islamophobic population is what would really be unwise of this group. They shouldn't compromise the exercise of their rights because of some dimwits.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Betty: Since the Sienna Poll didn't focus exclusively on NYC voters, the Quinnipiac Poll did. The results? "New York City voters oppose 52 - 31 percent a proposal by a Muslim group to build a mosque and cultural center two blocks from Ground Zero, according to a Quinnipiac University poll released today. Another 17 percent are undecided."

 

While 51% opposition is below the national average, it still indicates that more people, even in NYC, oppose the Mosque than accept it. http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1302.xml?ReleaseID=1473. A later poll found that the percentage of city residents opposing the mosque had ticked up slightly to 53% http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/politics/Majority-of-NYC-Voters-Disapprove-of-Bloomberg-Mosque-Poll-100353429.html

So, I think this answers your "But New Yorkers like it" argument.

 

Max: So protesting what you don't agree with is unwise, that is your position? OK - I can respect that. I get you support the mosque, that's your right. I support the right to build the mosque, but like they say in real-estate, location is all.....And its the location I'm not wild about. That doesn't make me anti-Islamic, it makes me anti-mosque at that location..build it 4 blocks further north and I'll give money to support the construction.

 

Additionally, I will admit that I am a little unsure of a project that can't even state it won't take money from Saudi Arabia and Iran. Surely most can admit that those nations practice Islam in a way that would be intolerable to most free-thinking people, and that maybe you don't want their money?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Max: So protesting what you don't agree with is unwise, that is your position?

No, that's not my position. Protesting this specific community center because it's Islamic is unwise because that protest is based on ridiculous reasons. Protesting other things, like the war in Afghanistan or Prop 8, is perfectly acceptable (i.e.: wise) because protesting those things is typically not based radical ignorance and dumb bigotry.

 

I support the right to build the mosque, but like they say in real-estate, location is all.....And its the location I'm not wild about. That doesn't make me anti-Islamic, it makes me anti-mosque at that location..build it 4 blocks further north and I'll give money to support the construction.

Give a reason you don't support it. Would you be okay with Christian church at that location? A porn store? Guess what, two blocks in New York City make a world of difference and there's no reason that it should not be built there. The only reasons people are giving are Islamophobic non-sense... "Oh, well, Islamic people are terrorists, you see..." or they support acquiescing to those moronic reasons because they are too weak to be critical of them. Provide one serious, solid reason unrelated to religion or people's dumb, bigoted sensitivities about Islam as to why the community center shouldn't be built there. Is the busted out former home of Burlington Coat Factory hallowed ground now?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is there a single legitimate reason even for "opposing" this community center (regardless of your thoughts about the right to build it)? I have yet to hear a single voice in opposition that doesn't rely exclusively on arguments based on:

  • Treating all Muslims (or at least all Islam) as terrorists or having connections to terrorism.
  • Dislike of people from the middle east, or the governments of particular middle eastern countries, whether or not there will be any connection between them and this project.
  • Polling data that shows other people don't like it (or, "it's okay to be a bigot if everyone around you is too").

 

Seriously, is there a single reason for opposing this building at this location other than blind xenophobia, dislike of Islam, or dislike of Muslims?

 

Everyone who says that the building is an affront to the victims of 9/11 should be equally opposed to Christian churches near where christian people have committed mass murders in the name of their God. In fact, if anyone who says they subscribe to your faith does something horrible, you and your fellow believers should have to stay far away from that location... or else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

seriously? just stop. this is nothing new.

 

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1302.xml?ReleaseID=1473

Opinions about the proposed mosque range from 46 - 36 percent support among Manhattan voters to 73 - 14 percent opposition in Staten Island, the independent Quinnipiac (KWIN-uh-pe-ack) University poll finds.

 

Where the “Ground Zero mosque” is concerned, opposition is roughly proportional to distance, even in New York. According to a recent poll, Manhattanites are mostly for it, Staten Islanders mostly against.

 

Staten Island might as well be New Jersey in terms of demographic and relevancy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
. . . affront to the victims of 9/11 . . .
This silly reason is just a straight-up fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_pity

 

I don't agree with this 100%. I think there absolutely should be some consideration to the victims and families of 9/11. Which is why I am appalled they are constructing another commercial building instead of a memorial at ground zero. It's an awful, greedy thing to do & completely lacking in human compassion. Why isn't Palin twittering about that? asshole

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The fallacy is appealing to 9/11 victims' sentiments to legitimize the underlying bigotry. Just because some of them think that all Islam = terrorism and, therefore, the community center should not be built does not make that argument correct. They don't get a trump card because of their suffering.

  • Downvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does anyone have any idea how this even started? I wake up one morning and all of a sudden Muslims can't build a mosque anywhere they want? Jesus.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...