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Alman

7 former KS debaters = first-round NDT

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California Brockaway/Jaswa

Emory Inamullah/Weil

Georgia Cambre/Lacy

Harvard Jacobs/Parkinson

Kansas Kennedy/Quigley

Kansas Kennedy/Stone

Mary Washington Kallmyer/Susko

Michigan State Lanning/Wunderlich

Missouri State Foley/Kearney

Northwestern Fisher/Spies

Oklahoma Giglio/Watts

Texas-Dallas Baker/Rubaie

Wake Forest Carlotti/Maza

Wake Forest Crichton/Sears

West Georgia Boykin/Schultz

Whitman Cohn/Straus

__________________

 

Well, hot damn. I'm assuming that Parkinson at Harvard is Alex? I haven't kept up too well. Either way, pretty awesome.

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Congrats to the first round teams. I am kinda shocked Jacob Polin didnt get a first round bid ..... just saying.

 

-Aaron

Covered on the other first-rounds thread - he chose not to apply and save another year of NDT eligibility.

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Covered on the other first-rounds thread - he chose not to apply and save another year of NDT eligibility.

 

Ok, that makes sense. Thank You for clearing that up.

 

-Aaron

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wich SMS team went to Colleyville?

 

Varsha Subramanyam / Nick Czarnecki

 

I judged them round... 3 i think it was. Don't really remember which round was which.

 

 

EDIT: The other team I was missing was Wichita East.

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Fair points all around, and I absolutely agree that our top teams would be quite competitive on a broader national circuit.

 

Incidentally, I'm not quite as dinosaur-ish as my posts here might lead you to believe - this is just usually the stuff that gets me out of the woodwork. I'd be in support of a 1-2 tournament/year exemption to the travel rules (which would, among other things, be an end-around to the TOC which doesn't require the blessing of the Principals' Association). I just wonder sometimes if the top-tier champ-style folks really stop to think about the tremendous benefits this activity offers to kids of all levels of involvement, and the reasons why the coaching community truly believes there is more right with the status quo than there is wrong with it.

 

Apologies, though, for hijacking the thread by reading something into your original statement which wasn't intended. Such is life on the Internet.

 

Just as question and in no way is this an argument or does it mean disrespect, but how does the status quo system and it's benefits disappear if we were to lessen travel restrictions? Can DTrain not go to tonganoxie and debate in open?

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Keep in mind that there is also UMKC, KCKCC, JCCC, which all have experienced debaters capable of judging rounds (kind of an understatement). There is also a large contingent of excellent former debaters who would make great judges living in the Kansas City area. The problem really lies in a disconnect from the college community to the high school community. It is a rarity that college debaters coach high schools here like they do on the national circuit, and often times, those that do that live in the KC area do so for teams outside of KC. Which means these judges are gone to national tournaments on their off weekends. That being said, the Kansas side of the MO/KS divide, still does a much better job from the coach stand point of integrating experienced judges v. lay judges, enabling a champ style debate. Something that the MO side still has a problem doing.

 

I'm not so much saying that no one but KU is nearby that can judge, but that 85% of the time its mainly KU judges judging, or mommy/daddy judges.. sorry about that, I should have been a bit more specific.

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Several of the students who earned these first round bids DID compete on the national circuit, including at the TOC. With moderate success.

That was before the senior rule was changed. Now we can't go to the TOC and no one accepts teams as independents.

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That was before the senior rule was changed. Now we can't go to the TOC and no one accepts teams as independents.

 

I'm pretty sure Mr Dubios knows the current rules....

 

Congrats to all of the 1st round recipients, it's a big deal.

 

I will add one thing to this completely played out travel discussion. It is a terrible mistake to look at the KS circuit as some sort of "feeder" system so that teams can get good enough to travel the national circuit. Why travel when you can have quality competition right here at home. We have a big circuit that graduates a lot of kids who go on to KS colleges; we should be able to have plenty of judges for tournaments... but for some reason...

 

I challenge those who graduate and stay in state to go out and judge. Your commitment will be filled when you judge one round for every round you debated in high school.

 

Edited to say: How about adding an award for judges at DCI? Like a lifetime achievement type thing. Perhaps a judge wiki can be created and people can go in and update the tournaments that they judged at for tracking purposes... I don't know just an idea, just throwing it out.. I know that in other states certain tournaments give awards for judges/contributors. Perhaps that would create an incentive for some.

Edited by t-money

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This probably will not happen, as a sizable portion of the coaching community thinks that it is a bad thing for recent high school graduates to judge in-state tournaments on a regular basis.

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This probably will not happen, as a sizable portion of the coaching community thinks that it is a bad thing for recent high school graduates to judge in-state tournaments on a regular basis.

 

this plus a majority of tourneys seem to want to get all kinds of lay judges, and have no judges that would prefer more contemp styles of debate (at least those not on the east-side of kansas)

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this plus a majority of tourneys seem to want to get all kinds of lay judges, and have no judges that would prefer more contemp styles of debate (at least those not on the east-side of kansas)
I know where STADB9 is coming from and his frustration. However to claim that tournaments on the East side of Kansas are actively recruiting lay judges rather than judges that prefer contemporary styles of debate is stretching the truth of the matter too far.

 

Not to get into the debate of Lay versus 1st-year-out judges, but a vast majority of the time tournaments are recruiting the willing much more than the able just so they can be functional. Nearly every weekend there are 2 tournaments in the KC metro area on the Kansas side. That is between 50 to 100 judges needed. Find that many contemporary style judges that are willing to judge each and every weekend without getting paid and things would be different. It is just the reality of having an abundance of participation that we will need lots of parent judges. I'd rather have the participation.

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I know where STADB9 is coming from and his frustration. However to claim that tournaments on the East side of Kansas are actively recruiting lay judges rather than judges that prefer contemporary styles of debate is stretching the truth of the matter too far.

 

Not to get into the debate of Lay versus 1st-year-out judges, but a vast majority of the time tournaments are recruiting the willing much more than the able just so they can be functional. Nearly every weekend there are 2 tournaments in the KC metro area on the Kansas side. That is between 50 to 100 judges needed. Find that many contemporary style judges that are willing to judge each and every weekend without getting paid and things would be different. It is just the reality of having an abundance of participation that we will need lots of parent judges. I'd rather have the participation.

 

Let me give you (the community not Mr. Volen) additional perspective here. For a few years we hosted a national circuit style event at Olathe North. Last fall we had teams from three states committed to come but there was not enough interest from the state of Kansas for me to have the event. Even in years when we held the division the struggle to get judges to come was titanic. Short of offering more money than we can afford or charge 10 times our normal entry fee the pool is very hard to fill.

 

Part of the rationale was that those teams that wanted to debate that style did not want to burn a tournament weekend in Kansas and preferred to go elsewhere. It was quite embarrassing to tell those coaches that we could not provide that division for them.

 

Here is my take as of this year. Please understand I have no problem with what you all want and there should be plenty of people willing to back me up on that. The reality is that most of the complaints here are of a general nature when it becomes a real opportunity there simply isn't enough interest. The SME squad was able to ensure that the division was viable for a few years but the rest of Kansas wasn't able or interested in making it work.

 

I truly believe that one of the big factors in my team's run at NFL last summer was because we were able to give them exposure to that division here at O.N. The stress associated with making that happen (the division) was at least 10 times greater than running a regular event.

 

Now, before you go claiming that my experience just shows how terrible the coaches in Kansas are the reality was that for the top teams, competing in Kansas even with the judge pool and style that they want (including laptops every round) simply was not "prestigious" enough to warrant them coming. Without the "normal" pool of debaters there simply would not be very many tournaments in Kansas as teams prefer to go elsewhere.

 

The Iowa example is proof enough for me.

 

Now, having said all that it seems that the purpose of this thread has been hijacked and we need to move these comments to here...

 

http://www.cross-x.com/vb/showthread.php?t=996246

 

I am on your side but when I try to give you what you want there is very little help or interest...reality bites...

Edited by Dinosaurio
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(at least those not on the east-side of kansas)

 

I feel like Adam is getting jumped on here, so please note that this says NOT on the east side of Kansas, so he's saying here in west Kansas he's not a fan of the judging, I'm not going to agree or disagree with him but just read more carefully

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I feel like Adam is getting jumped on here, so please note that this says NOT on the east side of Kansas, so he's saying here in west Kansas he's not a fan of the judging, I'm not going to agree or disagree with him but just read more carefully

Still bored in class so I'll revise my boring rant. Regardless of how wrong it seems I may have misread that one part of his statement, the idea that any coach in any area is trying to push lay judges into the pool and isnt recruiting quallified judges is (in my opinion and i would hope in reality) flawed and still a bit outlandish and can be taken in a bad way. it is much harder to get college debaters to come out and judge in western kansas tournaments as it can sometimes entail an overnight trip and lodging, etc. It is much more likely that these "quallified judges" will need to be paid and many coaches can't handle paying a bunch of college kids to come out and judge for the weekend. There's also another aspect of transporting said judges if they can't make it out to the tournament. This isn't true for all tournaments but is much more common in western kansas. It should be considered that maybe these judges aren't pushing lay judges into the pool but are instead just unable to get "quallified judes" to travel out to the tournament and judge. It is tragic, but it is a factor that must be examined.

 

And Congrats on the NDT bids.

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the idea that any coach in any area is trying to push lay judges into the pool and isnt recruiting quallified judges is (in my opinion and i would hope in reality) flawed and still a bit outlandish and can be taken in a bad way.

 

Having opened this can of worms, I'll clarify: I don't know that there are any particular coaches who actively seek to replace college kids with lay judges specifically. In my experience they generally prefer experienced community judges when available.

 

The perception exists that a number of younger college judges undertake their tasks with an agenda. I can't possibly imagine how this perception would exist, you know, given the content of some of these threads.

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Congrats to all those receiving he bids. Not only a list of great debaters but also a list of great people. Ill stay out of the discussion, all i will say was Swans tournament was a great place for freestyle debate and as i look at the list of those who got those bids more than one jumps out at me as attending said tournament. O the memories Swan. From the 7 hour oral critiques to actually being in the tournament. Those were the days when we were young.

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I feel like Adam is getting jumped on here, so please note that this says NOT on the east side of Kansas, so he's saying here in west Kansas he's not a fan of the judging, I'm not going to agree or disagree with him but just read more carefully

 

Sorry you feel that way. It seems to me that we are simply trying to discuss the problem at hand. I can only speak about events I host and I was simply trying to explain how the geographic location isn't really helpful sometimes. Some of us have tried to create what you want and met with obstacles that maybe you have not foreseen. It is very easy to mistake tone in these forums so hopefully we will give each other some additional benefit of the doubt?

 

-BTW Gitmo 5 of the 7 did compete here in that event.

Edited by Dinosaurio

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The perception exists that a number of younger college judges undertake their tasks with an agenda. I can't possibly imagine how this perception would exist, you know, given the content of some of these threads.

 

quoted so you can all reread it

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Sorry you feel that way. It seems to me that we are simply trying to discuss the problem at hand. I can only speak about events I host and I was simply trying to explain how the geographic location isn't really helpful sometimes. Some of us have tried to create what you want and met with obstacles that maybe you have not foreseen. It is very easy to mistake tone in these forums so hopefully we will give each other some additional benefit of the doubt?

 

-BTW Gitmo 5 of the 7 did compete here in that event.

I would love to go to a champ division tournament you hosted. I think your tournament is the weekend before New Trier making it even better!

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