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Good camp for less $

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My dad's planning to build a new buiding so we have to save $ so does anyone know a good camp or any that are somewhat less expensive than the rest?

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i would suggest the Wyoming forensics institute it is like ~900 for 3 week or 600 for 2 weeks but if even that is too much hit up the infinity prep camp its an online camp but its like 200 dollars

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i would suggest the Wyoming forensics institute it is like ~900 for 3 week or 600 for 2 weeks but if even that is too much hit up the infinity prep camp its an online camp but its like 200 dollars
How many practice rounds does infinity prep promise? Without practice rounds....its not actually learning its lecturing.

 

Ergo--infinity prep can't take the place of camp...it can only be a supplement.

 

Between 35 to 45% of the value from camp these days is from the practice debates, where you get critiques and feedback customized to you. From the advertisement, it seems like you do your own drills. That doesn't count, either.

 

Don't get me wrong, this is a step in a good direction and probably helpful, but it can't supplement for fundamentals of an institute.

Edited by nathan_debate

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Between 35 to 45% of the value from camp these days is from the practice debates, where you get critiques and feedback customized to you. From the advertisement, it seems like you do your own drills. That doesn't count, either.

 

(Where are you getting this number?)

 

Anyway, I largely agree. It's fairly intuitive - you get better at debate by debating. Part of getting the maximum custom feedback involves going somewhere for as long as possible, so you can map your progress and get another wave of debates and research in (plus you spend longer away from otherwise boring real life to hang around with cool people - a largely underrated but awesome part of camp). 3-4 weeks seems like the most you can squeeze out of what you're spending, so see what you can find in that range.

 

I should probably ask this question at some point - what's your budget limit and where are you from? Keep in mind that it's cheaper to go to an institute nearby (to save on plane tickets, obviously) - it might change your original price estimates or take a camp off the list.

Edited by Neurotic_Mastermind

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(Where are you getting this number?)
Its a guesstimation. I think its important for potential institute customers to know what they are getting.

 

Additionally, I firmly believe that to whatever extent possible they should provide rounds. $50 for 4 rounds of practice and critique via a web conferencing application would be incredibly reasonable for the institute and the campers. There are several zero and low cost options available including Dim Dim (it would depend on if you were going with synchonous vs. asynchronous debates). I know the folks at Emory have much more experience in this area than do I as they have an after school program based on computer-aided debate.

 

Keep in mind that it's cheaper to go to an institute nearby (to save on plane tickets, obviously) - it might change your original price estimates or take a camp off the list.
Also, realize that if you are attending an institute at a university that doesn't have a policy debate program you are taking a risk.

 

The only good "regional" camps I can think about are: Wyoming, Samford, Kansas, Iowa, and perhaps Baylor in TX and SCFI in Utah (I worked at this camp several years ago).

 

Bottom line: Don't be wooed by dollar amounts. You rarely can walmart-ify the debate learning experience.

Edited by nathan_debate

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How many practice rounds does infinity prep promise? Without practice rounds....its not actually learning its lecturing.

 

Ergo--infinity prep can't take the place of camp...it can only be a supplement.

 

Between 35 to 45% of the value from camp these days is from the practice debates, where you get critiques and feedback customized to you. From the advertisement, it seems like you do your own drills. That doesn't count, either.

 

Don't get me wrong, this is a step in a good direction and probably helpful, but it can't supplement for fundamentals of an institute.

 

A classic case of claim without a warrant.

 

InfinitePrep's debate camp will have "critiques and feedback customized to you" at all levels of the preparation.

 

1) Research. Everybody will be given assignments which will be reviewed by lab leaders via commenting tools. This is a collaborative process that will be a back and forth between students and instructors. At most institutes these days, file review and "custom critiques and feedback" occur via the same digital online tools that we will be using.

 

2) Debating. We will provide students with instructions on drills to do, including 2AC, Block Extensions, Rebuttals, even cross-examination. Most laptops these days have built in cameras, and speeches and drills can be uploaded for review and "critiques and feedback customized" to the debater. Dan Shalmon, Calum Matheson, or Kuntal Cholera giving a 2AC and then reviewing your attempt to cover in the 2NC sounds like an awesome way to learn how to give better speeches. Via Dropbox, and social video tools that allow commenting and embedding video responses, this will be a high-tech streamlined process.

 

And by the way, institutes spend much less than 35-45% of their time on practice rounds. If your percentage is accurate (how many camps are you basing this data on?), then most of what you do at a standard camp is a waste of time. Obviously, I think that camps are very useful and a great resource. I'm just saying that your argument doesn't even stand on its own logic.

 

The OP asked what a good inexpensive camp would be, and it seems like there are some great suggestions. I just thought I'd put in a defense of a camp that has both students and instructors who are excited to participate.

 

Best,

 

Mike Burshteyn

Director, InfiniteCamp

Edited by meshtdagn

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If what Mike says is true (and this tech integration is effective), then I'm all for it. I still think you can't match actually attending a full institute (I'm still friends with and learned an immense amount from the people I met at Michigan and Dartmouth years ago), but if you're short on cash and still want to prepare for the season, go for it.

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Clarity About My Critique:

The following is a criticism of four distinct choices by the Infinite Prep institute:

 

1) Educational methodology

2) Activities/time focus/customer service/product (aka no focus on real time debates via free and low cost synchonous web technologies)

3) Technology choices (which eskew real time offerings)

4) Clarity and transparency about the product offering.

 

Lack of Clarity Lead to My initial Post--So Don't Blame Me

 

A classic case of claim without a warrant.
Untrue. I did a Firefox search on your landing page (aka site) for "practice debates" and "practice rounds" And I got goose egg for results--your claims about "customized feedback" are answered below--that could be literally anything.

 

If you are here to announce that you are offering:

1) practice rounds

2) practice debates

3) rebuttal redos

4) a virtual video tournament

 

I'm indeed curious how many practice debates, tournament debates, and rebuttal redoes each student will get. They'll get them is hardly enough....

 

If I am in error, I am indeed apologetic. I only based my assumptions off of the exact wording of your advertisement. "Customized feedback" could mean literally anything. Until you make a guarantee in terms of specifics, I and your prospective customers have no idea what you are offering.

 

Being clearer about your offerings can only add to the legitimacy and value of your institute offering. I'm only helping you improve your product. It also clarifies so that you don't get a half-dozen students or more who end up a week after the camp curious why they didn't get the institute experience they expected.

 

I agree with Kyle that your institute is still probably a pretty good value. Its just that students and parents as customers and supporters deserve to know what they are getting in toto. Right now thats left up to guesswork as to what "customized feedback" is. If you need to leave that up to TBA....so be it.

 

And Drop Box is hardly High Tech (especially in real time, speed debate):

 

Dan Shalmon, Calum Matheson, or Kuntal Cholera giving a 2AC and then reviewing your attempt to cover in the 2NC sounds like an awesome way to learn how to give better speeches. Via Dropbox, and social video tools that allow commenting and embedding video responses, this will be a high-tech streamlined process.
1) One caveat, drop box is fine for rebuttal redos, but not for practice debates.

2) Its just email with a twist. Or You Sent it with a twist, which has been around for a while. (dont get me wrong, there are lots of cool uses for drop box)

3) It can't create real-time debates. There are free tools which can help you create real time debate (, which will also allow you to save the video for later. If you are training debaters to do stop-motion debates....drop box is fine...but I assume you're training them to participate in debates which don't have 5 to 10 to 15 minute delays between speeches (plus these will take an hour longer for practice debates). Where speed is part of the intrinsic part of the activity....debates like this come up short.

 

BTW, the staff is impressive. Not denying that. Kudos for assembelling such an impressive staff and having the foresight to create such a virtual institute in the first place.

 

Debate and Topic Knowledge is almost useless without application:

 

And by the way, institutes spend much less than 35-45% of their time on practice rounds.
I didn't say time. I said value. Important distinction.

 

It certainly stands as a critique of more traditional workshops as well. Many institutes still favor knowledge dump as the leading educational pedagogy, while that methodology is 100 years out of date. And its not teaching or viable model for learning....its presenting.

 

Most debate scholars would agree that at a minimum practice. Even if they wouldn't, the bulk of education research over the last 75 years would conclude that more real-scenario based (and real time) debates would be a favorable solution for genuine learning to take place (see citations below via links).

 

Practice Trumps Information Dumps (aka presenting):

 

And just because I don't have scientific data doesn't mean its not true. What value do you practice debates and institute tournament debates along with rebuttal redo/feedback provides? Those experiences are invaluable. Abscent those experiences all the knowledge in the world can't substitute for the cognitive. Thats constructivism FYI. Thats piaget and vgotsky and every other educational expert sense then which responded to the taylorist assumptions and behaviourism which proceeded it. And 1604 citations on In Search for Understanding: The Case for Constructivist Classrooms is all the theoretical underpinning I need. (By the way Vgotsky get 12,493 on one book alone and Piaget gets 5096 )

 

Let me clarify....I'm not Infinite Prep Camp or Mike B., white the contrary. I just things should be clarified to whatever extent possible and viable given the teachers, customers, and any other relevant stakeholders.

Edited by nathan_debate

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Don't know you Nathan, but having volunteered (yes, volunteered) to serve as the Novice Instructor for InfiniteCamp this summer, I thought that perhaps my personal expectations concerning the development of the online debate learning experience might make some things a little more clear for you, since clarity seems to be your niche.

While teaching an online LLM Class in Bankruptcy Procedure this Spring, I have learned some of the benefits (and burdens) of what is both a static (objectivist) and interactive (constructivist) approach to online education. Certainly, the more interactivity that occurs, the better from the instructor's perspective as educator and from the instructor's perspective and learner in a brave new technological world.

With students in Puerto Rico, Alabam, Missouri, Florida, California and other places I would someday like to visit, the virtual classroom enables self-motivated learners the opportunity to expand their knowledge base in a national legal subject (the practice of bankruptcy is a federal responsibility), while at the same time also responding to the nuances of local practice rules, guidelines and requirements (admission to practice law is a state/territory/district matter).

In the context of debate institute learning, the opportunity for students in remote locations to access a centralized debate workshop learning site without the added cost of travel, dorm expense and just being away from other summer obligations or entitlements provides, in my mind, the ideal nexus of a balance between an "ante" and an "all-in."

While we (possibly) might both agree that the on-campus institute learning experience is educational is ways well beyond the debate-centric knowledge base, there is a matter of cost-benefit to be calculated into the equation, particularly for students (and parents/guardians) who must pay their own way both to summer programs and to tournaments in the fall, winter and spring.

I am a firm believer in the value of an on-campus debate institute learning and life experience. My son learned more during his summers studying with Scott Deatherage, Dan Shalmon, Chris Lundberg, jon sharp, Josh Hoe, Aaron Kall, Judy Butler, Tristan Morales, Josh Branson and others at Northwestern, Kentucky, Michigan and Stanford (and made more life-long friends), than I perceive he ever could have learned staying at home in front of his computer for a summer. My students at LCC and St. Augustine have had the same equally wonderful experiences growing and learning from Dave Hingstman, Steve Mancuso, jim hanson, Matt Stannard, Ken Strange, Dave Arnett, Greg Achten Brian Manuel and Brent Culpepper.

However, the options/abilities to attend summer programs at college campuses are not open to everyone and the reasons are largely (though not exclusively), financial. InfiniteCamp offers the promise of access to an argument and debate instructional experience for many who still want to debate at the upper levels of the national circuit but who cannot afford the money (or time) to devote to a large portion of their summer being spent on on a distant (or even local) college campus.

The ability to integrate constructivist approaches into the curriculum is, and for a long period of time will remain, a work in progress. No doubt that practice debates make better debaters, but the interactive experience in online educational access extends beyond the actual debate round experience.

My hope and objectives in teaching a Novice curriculum will be to instruct in the basics, but also to provide feedback in the form of answering questions, watching practice speeches online and giving comments and criticism and assisting in the development of the next phase of competitive academic debate, a phase that will include an online competitive experience.

At the Golden Desert Tournament, a series of presentations were made to the technology subcommittee of a prominent high school speech and debate national organization by a number of truly gifted and forward-thinking teachers and scholars. How the tournaments of the future are organized online and how speech and debate competitions are made available through the internet was the subject of those presentations.

What Michael Burshteyn has done is to offer a glimpse into the future of where competitive academic debate is headed, at a reasonable price and on reasonably accessible temporal terms.

The thread is about good camps for the price. InfiniteCamp qualifies as a welcome party to the discussion. The number of practice debates, the number of rebuttal re-do's, the potential for an online tournament are not the subject of the InfiniteCamp advertising materials. Your discovery of "zero" responses in your search of the website for those items speaks well of your computer research skills, something for which you are to be lauded. However, the world of education, and the world of academic competitive debate, are moving beyond the static confines of a brick and mortar classroom. As such, the style, type and nature of the offerings of an online summer institute program are not easily analogized or compared to the style, type and nature of the offerings of a traditional on-campus summer institute.

As a parent and as a coach of students who pay their own way to institutes and to tournaments, the costs (including opportunity costs of losing the on campus life learning) and benefits comparison of InfiniteCamp include a multitude of factors that make the idea of spending money on this Institute a good one for some, and not so good for others.

Here is what is advertised, nothing more, nothing less, and I suspect the marketplace will obviously decide, again, with thanks for your unsolicited advice:

“1 – Daily Video Lectures from each full-time lab leader as well as guest lectures throughout the week.

2 – On demand Video Seminars. As we begin to put together our class for instruction, we will take requests for lectures. Like everything else at InfinitePrep, we aim to tailer our information and resources to exactly what you need. If that means 2 hours of Impact Calculus, so be it!

3 – Complete Starter Set. We will provide all campers with an Affirmative, Case Neg, Topicality File, and multiple Disads, Counterplans, and Kritiks.

4 – Assignment lists. This aims to be a fully comprehensive learning experience, and that means assignments. Lab leaders will assign files to students along with research aids and cite lists. Assignments will be reviewed along with feedback to help everybody improve their research skills. All assignments will be shared with the camp as part of attendance.

4 -Drill Outlines and Hands on Curriculum. You will have step-by-step guides for drills and other exercises to help your speaking, research, flowing, and other skills.

5 – DropBox access for all campers. InfiniteCamp will work with DropBox technology to share files and research among the entire camp throughout the summer. This will make access and collaboration a seamless experience.

and MORE. All in all, a full week of interactive customized instruction and personalized feedback to help you master the upcoming debate topic!

And the best part is, InfiniteCamp can either be an option for those who are unable or unwilling to attend expensive full-time institutes, or simply a supplement to the institute instruction that you already will get. It is a complete package of the camp experience for a fraction of the cost.

All it costs for one student is $250 for unlimited access to all our instructional material and hands-on interaction.

Register before March 1st and receive an EARLYBIRD rate of $200!

InfiniteCamp will revolutionize the way you prepare for debate in the summer, and we are excited to bring you the first elite caliber online camp experience.”

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Don't know you Nathan, but having volunteered (yes, volunteered) to serve as the Novice Instructor for InfiniteCamp this summer, I thought that perhaps my personal expectations concerning the development of the online debate learning experience might make some things a little more clear for you, since clarity seems to be your niche.

While teaching an online LLM Class in Bankruptcy Procedure this Spring, I have learned some of the benefits (and burdens) of what is both a static (objectivist) and interactive (constructivist) approach to online education. Certainly, the more interactivity that occurs, the better from the instructor's perspective as educator and from the instructor's perspective and learner in a brave new technological world.

With students in Puerto Rico, Alabama, Missouri, Florida, California and other places I would someday like to visit, the virtual classroom enables self-motivated learners the opportunity to expand their knowledge base in a national legal subject area (the practice of bankruptcy is a federal responsibility), while at the same time also responding to the nuances of local practice rules, guidelines and requirements (admission to practice law is a state/territory/district matter).

In the context of debate institute learning, the opportunity for students in remote locations to access a centralized debate workshop learning site without the added cost of travel, dorm expense and just being away from other summer obligations or entitlements provides, in my mind, the ideal nexus of a balance between what poker players would know as an "ante" and an "all-in."

While we (possibly) might both agree that the on-campus institute learning experience is educational in ways well beyond the debate-centric knowledge base, there is a matter of cost-benefit to be calculated into the equation, particularly for students (and parents/guardians) who must pay their own way both to summer programs and to tournaments in the fall, winter and spring.

I am a firm believer in the value of an on-campus debate institute learning and life experience. My son learned more during his summers studying with Scott Deatherage, Dan Shalmon, Chris Lundberg, jon sharp, Josh Hoe, Aaron Kall, Judy Butler, Tristan Morales, Josh Branson and others at Northwestern, Kentucky, Michigan and Stanford (and made more life-long friends), than I perceive he ever could have learned staying at home in front of his computer for a lifetime. My students at LCC and St. Augustine have had the same equally wonderful experiences growing and learning from Dave Hingstman, Steve Mancuso, jim hanson, Matt Stannard, Ken Strange, Dave Arnett, Greg Achten, Brian Manuel and Brent Culpepper.

However, the options/abilities to attend summer programs at college campuses are not open to everyone and the reasons are largely (though not exclusively), financial. InfiniteCamp offers the promise of access to an argument and debate instructional experience for many who still want to debate at the upper levels of the national circuit but who cannot afford the money (or time) to devote to a large portion of their summer being spent on on a distant (or even local) college campus.

The ability to integrate constructivist approaches into the curriculum is, and for a long period of time will remain, a work in progress. No doubt that practice debates make better debaters, but the interactive experience in online educational access extends beyond the actual debate round practice experience, though it may hopefully include such an opportunity at some point in the future.

My hope and objectives in teaching a Novice curriculum will be to instruct in the basics, but also to provide feedback in the form of answering questions, watching practice speeches online and giving comments and criticism and assisting in the development of the next phase of competitive academic debate, a phase that, I believe, will inevitably include an online competitive experience.

At the Golden Desert Tournament, a series of presentations were made to the technology subcommittee of a prominent high school speech and debate national organization by a number of truly gifted and forward-thinking teachers and scholars. How tournaments of the future are organized online and how speech and debate competitions are made available through the internet was the subject of those presentations.

What Michael Burshteyn has done is to offer a glimpse into the future of where competitive academic debate is headed, at a reasonable price and on reasonably accessible temporal terms.

The thread is about good camps for the price. InfiniteCamp qualifies as a welcome party to the discussion. The number of practice debates, the number of rebuttal re-do's, the potential for an online tournament are not the focused subject of the InfiniteCamp's advertising materials, nor, given the developing state of technology, could they be. Your discovery of "zero" responses in your search of the website for those items speaks well of your computer research skills, something for which you are to be lauded. However, the world of education, and the world of academic competitive debate, are moving beyond the static confines of a brick and mortar classroom. As such, the style, type and nature of the offerings of an online summer institute program are not easily analogized or compared to the style, type and nature of the offerings of a traditional on-campus summer institute.

As a parent and as a coach of students who pay their own way to institutes and to tournaments, the costs (including opportunity costs of losing the on campus life learning) and benefits comparison of InfiniteCamp include a multitude of factors that make the idea of spending money on this Institute a good one for some, and not so good for others.

Here is what is advertised, nothing more, nothing less, and I suspect the marketplace will obviously decide, again, with thanks for your unsolicited advice on how Michael can improve his sales pitch:

“1 – Daily Video Lectures from each full-time lab leader as well as guest lectures throughout the week.

2 – On demand Video Seminars. As we begin to put together our class for instruction, we will take requests for lectures. Like everything else at InfinitePrep, we aim to tailer our information and resources to exactly what you need. If that means 2 hours of Impact Calculus, so be it!

3 – Complete Starter Set. We will provide all campers with an Affirmative, Case Neg, Topicality File, and multiple Disads, Counterplans, and Kritiks.

4 – Assignment lists. This aims to be a fully comprehensive learning experience, and that means assignments. Lab leaders will assign files to students along with research aids and cite lists. Assignments will be reviewed along with feedback to help everybody improve their research skills. All assignments will be shared with the camp as part of attendance.

4 -Drill Outlines and Hands on Curriculum. You will have step-by-step guides for drills and other exercises to help your speaking, research, flowing, and other skills.

5 – DropBox access for all campers. InfiniteCamp will work with DropBox technology to share files and research among the entire camp throughout the summer. This will make access and collaboration a seamless experience.

and MORE. All in all, a full week of interactive customized instruction and personalized feedback to help you master the upcoming debate topic!

And the best part is, InfiniteCamp can either be an option for those who are unable or unwilling to attend expensive full-time institutes, or simply a supplement to the institute instruction that you already will get. It is a complete package of the camp experience for a fraction of the cost.

All it costs for one student is $250 for unlimited access to all our instructional material and hands-on interaction.

Register before March 1st and receive an EARLYBIRD rate of $200!

InfiniteCamp will revolutionize the way you prepare for debate in the summer, and we are excited to bring you the first elite caliber online camp experience.”

There are GREAT institutes out there at REASONABLE prices, and GREAT values to be had from 3,4,5 and 7 week experiences at beautiful college campuses around the country. For those of you who cannot avail yourselves of those opportunities this summer, please consider InfiniteCamp as either an adjunct to your summer learning or as a means through which your knowledge of the topic and of debate can be enhanced at a reasonable cost in terms of both your treasure and your time.

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In the context of debate institute learning, the opportunity for students in remote locations to access a centralized debate workshop learning site without the added cost of travel, dorm expense and just being away from other summer obligations or entitlements provides, in my mind, the ideal nexus of a balance between an "ante" and an "all-in."

 

Agreed. And the staff is pretty outstanding too.

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