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deathrow93

2NC Counterplans

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If a 2NC counter plan could be justified it would be very strategic because the first chance the aff would have to answer it would be in the 1AR. The block could read a 4 minute shell which would include new net benefits and impacts plus 9 minutes of extensions on other arguments they are winning. The 1AR would have to answer all of that plus a brand new counter plan.

I think 2NC advantage counter plans can be awesome ways to answer 2AC add on advantages.

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If a 2NC counter plan could be justified it would be very strategic because the first chance the aff would have to answer it would be in the 1AR. The block could read a 4 minute shell which would include new net benefits and impacts plus 9 minutes of extensions on other arguments they are winning. The 1AR would have to answer all of that plus a brand new counter plan.

 

I think 2NC advantage counter plans can be awesome ways to answer 2AC add on advantages.

 

The second half of this post is true.

 

The danger of new net benefits is the 1AR can straight-turn. If you say its dispo, they stick you with an adv CP in the 1AR... If it's not, still gotta answer the offense.

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If you say its dispo,

That is true. Never say that. Run it Condo. And you should already have a condo cp on the flow so the only thing you need to deal with is your counter interpretation on theory.

The second half of this post is true.

 

The danger of new net benefits is the 1AR can straight-turn. If you say its dispo, they stick you with an adv CP in the 1AR... If it's not, still gotta answer the offense.

Ok. So if we exclude the new net benefit part and the impact part as in:

If a 2NC counter plan could be justified it would be very strategic because the first chance the aff would have to answer it would be in the 1AR. The block could read a 4 minute shell ... plus 9 minutes of extensions on other arguments they are winning. The 1AR would have to answer all of that plus a brand new counter plan.

That is pretty much the same as the second part. So it’s really only the new net benefit we need to deal with.

And I think that is right, the best strat is to turn the new net benefit (if there is one and if you can). And so if your neg and you run a new 2NC counter plan after the aff does a new add on advantage (by the way we agree that is an awesome strat and I would go on to say probably indicative of a pretty good and well coached team), make sure your add on net benefit can not be strategically turned (like maybe run individual action, or racism, something way left) or don't run a new one tie it back to one that is already on the flow.

Yep you need to be careful about new net benefits in the block. If they can be strategically turned it could be problematic. But if they can’t; try being the 1AR then. And never run your 2NC counter plan dispo. Ya, never.

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This is a fairly new concept to me and sounds pretty interesting. Logistically, how does this work out? Rough example from camp files on the alt eng and poverty topic for the sake of illustration--

 

1AC: Plan--The USFG should substantially increase funding for the DoD to develop and acquire hybrid electric vehicles and fully equip the military with SkyBuilt Renewable Energy Trailers. Advantage: just Heg (hard power)

 

1NC: Adv CP--The US DoD should increase funding for counterinsurgency reform in the US Military.

 

2AC: Makes a bunch of perms, and reads an add-on advantage (let's say poverty/structural violence)

 

Let's say I had an Advantage CP that solved for poverty that was based on increasing the minimum wage. So in the block, would the new 2NC counterplan be--

 

The US DoD should increase funding for counterinsurgency reform in the US Military. The United States federal government should substantitally increase the national minimum wage to 50 percent of the national average.

 

with accompanying theory arguments on why 2NC counterplans are legit? Also, would the 2NC shell also include predicted new 1AR arguments (like new perms)? It seems likely that completely new 2NR responses on 1AR perms or turns on a new 2NC CP are going to be perceived as illegitimate?

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1AC: Plan--The USFG should substantially increase funding for the DoD to develop and acquire hybrid electric vehicles and fully equip the military with SkyBuilt Renewable Energy Trailers. Advantage: just Heg (hard power)

 

1NC: Adv CP--The US DoD should increase funding for counterinsurgency reform in the US Military.

 

2AC: Makes a bunch of perms, and reads an add-on advantage (let's say poverty/structural violence)

 

Let's say I had an Advantage CP that solved for poverty that was based on increasing the minimum wage. So in the block, would the new 2NC counterplan be--

 

The US DoD should increase funding for counterinsurgency reform in the US Military. The United States federal government should substantitally increase the national minimum wage to 50 percent of the national average.

 

Basically yes. But what was your original net benefit. You have to have a net benefit. Hopefully the terminal impact of your net benefit is extinction, at least lots of wars. Maybe, if the DOD funds skybuilt whatever it is perceived as a new era of military expansion and causes a new global military arms race in space that leads to global conflicts and war. Then it depends on how they handled the net benefit. I would think there would be better advantage counter plans to solve hedge than counterinsurgency reform but ok for the illustration we will go with that. Your 2AC example is not very good because your counter plan can be permed as in perm do both. The point is the perm, any perm should still link to your net benefit. So if they have no offence against your original counter plan and no solvency deficits they are in a world of hurt. As long as your counter plan solves all of the aff advantages absent any offence against the counter plan any risk of a net benefit means you vote negative so yes an answer to their new add on advantage is a new advantage counter plan. I would just make it a new counter plan so now you have two. But in your illustration you could make it an amendment to your existing counter plan and in your illustration that would probably be better.

 

with accompanying theory arguments on why 2NC counter plans are legit?

 

No. Wait for them to make the argument then answer it in the 2NR.

2NC advantage counter plans in answer to 2AC add on advantages are totally legit. Pre empting that argument is a total waste of time. The aff shouldn't even bother making it.

 

Also, would the 2NC shell also include predicted new 1AR arguments (like new perms)?

 

No. Again wait for them to make the argument. Also if you do this right the perms will all link to the net benefit. Plus if the counter plans where run conditionally and there is something else you are going to go for in the 2NR (like a K) you can drop them and not answer any of that ever. All you would have to say to kick the counter plans is: go to all of the theory, group it, drop the argument not the team. Go to the perms group them they are a test of competition and not an advocacy. Now the K.

 

It seems likely that completely new 2NR responses on 1AR perms or turns on a new 2NC CP are going to be perceived as illegitimate?

 

Absolutely not. The 1AR argument is new you are just answering it. They are the ones who moved their position first with the new advantage. You just answered that. You have to be able to answer it or the affirmative would always win.

 

And by the way if your 2NC counter plan had a new net benefit, that would be hard to turn, like if there solvency was an increase in government jobs and your counter plan(s) did not do that and you said government jobs were a form of slavery that was worse bla bla bla and the claim that that is what it takes to solve poverty is the worst form of bio-political control and brainwashing ever and that it has discursive pre-fiat implications which should come first as well as post fiat implications. Now try being the 1AR. 5 minutes to handle that plus whatever else is extended in the block.

Edited by Robbgray
fix

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Yeah, my bad. I was thinking about the net benefit in my head but sort of just forgot to type it. But, my original question was about how it would be deployed in the 2NC so you've already helped me.

 

And, presumably you would kick the original 1NC CP and then read a new text for the 2NC CP, right (and then answer the arguments on the original 1NC CP that respond to the 2NC one)?

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And, presumably you would kick the original 1NC CP and then read a new text for the 2NC CP, right (and then answer the arguments on the original 1NC CP that respond to the 2NC one)?

I think this is just a question of phraseology.

The US DoD should increase funding for counterinsurgency reform in the US Military.

If your 1NC CP was an advantage counter plan like that.

The US DoD should increase funding for counterinsurgency reform in the US Military. The United States federal government should substantitally increase the national minimum wage to 50 percent of the national average.

And this is what you mean by a new counter plan. You could phrase it as we kick the old counter plan and now have a new one. In your example I would just call it an amendment to the original counter plan which is justified by the new advantage. Or just keep the original counter plan and have a new counter plan with the text: The United States federal government should substantially increase the national minimum wage to 50 percent of the national average. I think this way would create the cleanest flows. And I’m not going to spend a lot of time thinking about this but it seams to me you have to answer everything about the first counter plan that was in the 2AC or the entire strategy of reading 2 advantage counter plans probably does not work.

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