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The status of debate in Kansas

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This was equally entertaining. Patrick! Seriously, you pick the year in which home-grown kids win NDT to make this argument? That is hilarious! Are you really contending that there are major college debate programs that kids are being excluded from due to TOC not being sanctioned?

 

Oh, I agree that Kansas has produced many great college debaters, but a lot of them either did not get scholarships to debate or didn't get them until after their first year. For example, Brett and Nate didn't get a scholarship this year, despite winning the NDT. Its tough to get scholarships for schools in Kansas, unfortunately. Luckily KU is a great school and has great coaching and institutional support outside of its rather low scholarship fund, so we still manage to steal the Bricker and Nate's of the state away from KState (thank god!)

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mandatory kansas state sucks post here :)

 

i mean i love people there, but the school just sucks

 

edit: i of course mean this in the unsubstantiated claim sense. i don't know how academics there are. nor do i care. the place is built on animal shit and the football coach is so old he's almost as likely to die midseason as mangino. almost.

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mandatory kansas state sucks post here :)

 

i mean i love people there, but the school just sucks

 

edit: i of course mean this in the unsubstantiated claim sense. i don't know how academics there are. nor do i care. the place is built on animal shit and the football coach is so old he's almost as likely to die midseason as mangino. almost.

lol

QFA

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Its tough to get scholarships for schools in
Kansas, unfortunately.
That seems to be an indict on college debate, not high school debate. Is KU saying they would offer scholarships if kids went to TOC?

 

What do you consider a balance of types? Zero restriction on local and restriction on people leaving/doing champ - balance of what? This might just be my leanings on the issue, but the current setup seems anything but balanced. TOC circuit kids can't do the TOC thing because of restrictions. Local kids can do w/e. Seems fundamentally unbalanced.
Which weekend from WaRu till State can a kid not find a quality tournament in which they can do their style? Mapes pointed this out before, there are at least 8 if not more tournaments within 500 miles for a kids to do circuit style if they choose. The fact that there are more that don’t do circuit style is a matter of popularity, not restriction. For the few teams that want that circuit style, it is available without changing a single thing. That is what I call balance.

 

You say the TOC isn't allowed because they don't do things others will do. What are those things? Is it tournament date? Is it distance? Is it various things that go down at the tournament that aren't considered legit? How is TOC different from NFL and CFL? I also think these answers should come with a fundamental reason why those are justified. Seems to me that if those rules aren't that justified and "are just the rules", that's a reason to work to get rid of those rules or alter them, not accept them as 'inevitable.'
Have you considered the effects of banning the TOC on the appearance it gives TOC circuit tournaments? How does it look to a middle of the road coach who doesn't care where their kids go, but see they want to go to a tournament qualifyer geared at a tournament not sanctioned by the Principles Association? Do these kids ever really get that opportunity?

 

Hypothetically, what can shift this appearance? It semes like DCI bidding KCKCC is an initial first step. What changes have to happen for the TOC to be deemed 'legit'?

I think you are misevaluating the situation. TOC is not banned. It was not targeted and labeled illegit. It has not been, however, given an exemption from the 500 mile rule as NFL and CFL have been. I’ve heard Harvard runs a really nice tournament as well. Since it is more than 500 miles, we can’t go to it either, as it has not been given an exemption. The way to get the exemption is to be recognized as a true national tournament by the Principals Association, and for that you have to meet their accepted guidelines which includes at the very least filling out some paperwork. TOC hasn’t done that. No one has claimed TOC is illegit.

 

It seems the only “rule” then that needs justifying is the 500 mile rule (which has been discussed at length before in other threads as well). As a taxpayer and a coach, I love the 500 mile rule. You get plenty of options for diverse education while limiting expenses paid by the public school system. In an age of budget cuts, spending money on over and above travel expenses due to a small minority’s “drug addiction” to go to tournaments just can not be justified. In a world of unlimited funds, I would gladly reverse my support, but in the real world sacrifices and prioritization are very real and very important.

 

Besides, I’ve been to TOC qualifiers. Ours are run better. And we have better hospitality lounges (except for one school district that will remain nameless…)

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It seems the only “rule” then that needs justifying is the 500 mile rule (which has been discussed at length before in other threads as well). As a taxpayer and a coach, I love the 500 mile rule. You get plenty of options for diverse education while limiting expenses paid by the public school system. In an age of budget cuts, spending money on over and above travel expenses due to a small minority’s “drug addiction” to go to tournaments just can not be justified. In a world of unlimited funds, I would gladly reverse my support, but in the real world sacrifices and prioritization are very real and very important.

The problem I have with this statement is what about the teams who pay for themselves to go to tournaments. Kendall and I paid for all of our hotel fare and travel expenses for all but two tournaments we traveled to out of state. We were willing to pay for more. The 500 mile rule may be good for taxpayers that don't want schools to have to pay for long trips, but it does punish those that are willing to pay for the trip out of pocket.

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I want to get this straight:

We cannot go to the ToC because it has not been granted exemption from the 500 mille rule like CFL and NFL and that if paperwork was submitted this could be changed? or is there more to it? because that seems simple enough to take care of although correct me if im wrong, couldnt we just email Roger Solt asking him to fill out paperwork or has this been tried before and failed?

Also can someone explain what has happened at the ToC that seems so taboo that no one is willing to mention it. Mr. Volen has referred to it a few times as well as Mr. King, can someone clarify the exact situation?

 

Also Mr. Volen that comment wasnt meant to offend you it was just trying to prove the point that there is nothing mutually exclusive about the two styles of debate.

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I want to get this straight:

We cannot go to the ToC because it has not been granted exemption from the 500 mille rule like CFL and NFL and that if paperwork was submitted this could be changed? or is there more to it? because that seems simple enough to take care of although correct me if im wrong, couldnt we just email Roger Solt asking him to fill out paperwork or has this been tried before and failed?

Also can someone explain what has happened at the ToC that seems so taboo that no one is willing to mention it. Mr. Volen has referred to it a few times as well as Mr. King, can someone clarify the exact situation?

 

Also Mr. Volen that comment wasnt meant to offend you it was just trying to prove the point that there is nothing mutually exclusive about the two styles of debate.

It has been said several times that people have asked for the paperwork to be filled out and nobody has done it, there's very little you can do about it.

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It has been said several times that the paperwork would have to be filled out by those running to toc and they have not done it, there's very little you can do about it.

 

I understand that but are there other barriers or do we just have to ask Roger Solt and JW Patterson to submit paperwork to KSHAA and the High School Principles' Association?

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I understand that but are there other barriers or do we just have to ask Roger Solt and JW Patterson to submit paperwork to KSHAA and the High School Principles' Association?

 

Not KSHSAA, just the Principals' Association. The KSHSAA rule regarding national competition is all-encompassing, it's not a special debate thing. They require the sanctioning from the national organization in order to ensure that sports and activities only take worthwhile trips. However, TOC has demonstrated in the past that they are unwilling to pursue this sanctioning, which could be for any number of reasons.

 

Ironically enough, the reason this isn't a problem in many other states is because most states don't put debate under their umbrella of sports and activities - and this umbrella in Kansas is precisely why we have such a high level of participation, and I dare say, why 95% of the folks posting on this thread even heard about debate in high school.

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Not KSHSAA, just the Principals' Association. The KSHSAA rule regarding national competition is all-encompassing, it's not a special debate thing. They require the sanctioning from the national organization in order to ensure that sports and activities only take worthwhile trips. However, TOC has demonstrated in the past that they are unwilling to pursue this sanctioning, which could be for any number of reasons.

 

Ironically enough, the reason this isn't a problem in many other states is because most states don't put debate under their umbrella of sports and activities - and this umbrella in Kansas is precisely why we have such a high level of participation, and I dare say, why 95% of the folks posting on this thread even heard about debate in high school.

Ok. So hypothetically if we can get Roger Solt and JW Patterson to fill out paperwork and submit it to the High School Principles' Assoication we are all good and dandy? I understand that they havent in the past but is this all it would take?

Edited by TheSteveWoodExperience

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Ok. So hypothetically if we can get Roger Solt and JW Patterson to fill out paperwork and submit it to the High School Principles' Assoication we are all good and dandy? I understand that they havent in the past but is this all it would take?

 

Hypothetically, yes. But i doubt anyone posting on this thread knows what that totally entails, what restrictions that would be put into place for this acceptance, and other hurdles the TOC and its administrators would have to adhere too.

 

They have obviously made a decision not to pursue this in the past, and really that is just about anyone here knows.

 

/bd

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Hypothetically, yes. But i doubt anyone posting on this thread knows what that totally entails, what restrictions that would be put into place for this acceptance, and other hurdles the TOC and its administrators would have to adhere too.

 

They have obviously made a decision not to pursue this in the past, and really that is just about anyone here knows.

 

/bd

Ok. Thats Legit. Thanks Man. I guess i will pursue things outside of the realm of cross-x and see how that goes hopefully we can traverse the barriers

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I want to get this straight:

We cannot go to the ToC because it has not been granted exemption from the 500 mille rule like CFL and NFL and that if paperwork was submitted this could be changed? or is there more to it? because that seems simple enough to take care of although correct me if im wrong, couldnt we just email Roger Solt asking him to fill out paperwork or has this been tried before and failed?

Also can someone explain what has happened at the ToC that seems so taboo that no one is willing to mention it. Mr. Volen has referred to it a few times as well as Mr. King, can someone clarify the exact situation?

 

Also Mr. Volen that comment wasnt meant to offend you it was just trying to prove the point that there is nothing mutually exclusive about the two styles of debate.

Dude, we are cool. It would take a lot more than that to offend me from a cross-x post. Now if you were to call me fat...

 

I don't want to talk for King (even though apparently everyone thinks I do. I DON"T), but what I've heard about TOC is all rumor. I've never been there. There are concepts that TOC adheres to that I disagree with (like what it means to be a "quality" judge", the general elitist attitude that TOC fosters but might not encourage, or the fact it makes kids miss a week of school), but anything more than that I would be speculating as would anyone who hasn't been there.

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Oh, I agree that Kansas has produced many great college debaters, but a lot of them either did not get scholarships to debate or didn't get them until after their first year. For example, Brett and Nate didn't get a scholarship this year, despite winning the NDT. Its tough to get scholarships for schools in Kansas, unfortunately. Luckily KU is a great school and has great coaching and institutional support outside of its rather low scholarship fund, so we still manage to steal the Bricker and Nate's of the state away from KState (thank god!)

 

This is a bad example because it is my understanding that KU does not offer debate scholarships at all.

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Dude, we are cool. It would take a lot more than that to offend me from a cross-x post. Now if you were to call me fat...

 

I don't want to talk for King (even though apparently everyone thinks I do. I DON"T), but what I've heard about TOC is all rumor. I've never been there. There are concepts that TOC adheres to that I disagree with (like what it means to be a "quality" judge", the general elitist attitude that TOC fosters but might not encourage, or the fact it makes kids miss a week of school), but anything more than that I would be speculating as would anyone who hasn't been there.

Awesome man. I dont want to make anyone in kansas mad. People misunderstand the purpose of my post. I love Kansas debate and i don't want it to dissapear but at the same time i want to dabble in the national circuit. I would never call someone fat as an insult. I think making fun of someones looks or mental status is off limits. Thats down right mean.

Your probably a pretty chill dude i honestly dont know you except that youve judged me. I have no clue whatsoever who chris sevege is. Like people take cross-x posts way too seriously. im trying to incite change and nothing else.

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I forgot it was that time of year, where we predict the state of KS debate is going to collapse......I think this is like 4 years in a row.....

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I forgot it was that time of year, where we predict the state of KS debate is going to collapse......I think this is like 4 years in a row.....

 

It is a withdrawal thing I suppose.

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This was equally entertaining. Patrick! Seriously, you pick the year in which home-grown kids win NDT to make this argument? That is hilarious! Are you really contending that there are major college debate programs that kids are being excluded from due to TOC not being sanctioned?

True Kansas, Missouri, and Texas schools consistently get Kansans but fun fact actually that always drives me nuts.

 

EDIT: Turns out this story was probably hearsay. I won't delete the posts since I think the debate over the beneficial effects to recruitment for debate nationally and its relationship with national circuit debate has potential relevance but I personally apologize for spreading what was apparently a rumor.

Edited by Felix Hoenikker

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This was equally entertaining. Patrick! Seriously, you pick the year in which home-grown kids win NDT to make this argument? That is hilarious! Are you really contending that there are major college debate programs that kids are being excluded from due to TOC not being sanctioned?

 

You bastardized what Patrick was saying. His point was that colleges recruit based on the POTENTIAL for success in an NDT style debate. In the context of Kansas, they do not recruit based on how many Mommy's gave you unjustified 30's because that number would probably be through the roof. They are forward looking.

 

Also, Bricker supports Patrick's argument. He competed in the "champ" division in many of the KS tournaments while also participating in traditional KS debate. This merely underscores the importance of "champ" debate. Plus, success stories like him probably would've won the NDT if they had not debated in KS. Allowing them to compete at the TOC only could've added value, not diminished any.

 

 

But, today, if TOC is the goal of any student(s) in the state of Kansas (especially if there are tons), well that student(s) really should reevaluate their priorities. It is against the rules. Whether you agree with them or not, I would suggest doing everything you can to be successful within the rules. You can push to change the rules, but until the rules are changed, please don’t make your ultimate goal something that isn’t an option. That would be like me making it my lifelong goal to win the gold medal in softball. Even if I lost more weight than Jared and actually got good at softball (or if it was an Olympic sport anymore), I can’t be on the team because it is against the rules.

 

Volen, what you are saying is very, very easy for an older coach to say, someone who is more of an academic on this issue, someone who is distinct from the national circuit culture. Because I don't know if you ever went to a debate camp, and if you did, I would imagine that they were very different then.

 

Because nearly every debater who has gone to an out-of-state institute knows that EVERYONE there has one goal--go to the TOC. Every instructor at that institute has one goal for their squad--go to the TOC. Students gauge success based on one thing--performance at the TOC and/or TOC qualifiers. The entire national circuit culture is centered around the TOC. Once you become a part of that culture, there is no going back. Telling a kid not to worry about the TOC who goes to a camp geared towards steep improvement is like telling the Chiefs not to worry about the Super Bowl. This is a cultural difference. Pretty much everyone here who has reiterated their lack of understanding for why the TOC is so important has one thing in common--they haven't debated in years.

 

Does it say something that there are only 12 kids interested in circuit style in the area but there are 200 kids interested in a more traditional style? I think that might be democracy in motion, just that some of you don’t like it.

 

This has got to be a joke. Democracy? How many coaches sit their whole squad down before a tournament and say, "So how many of you want to compete in the champ division and how many of you want to compete in the other divisions?" You really think that kids get to completely choose what division they can participate in? So you're telling me if you had a talented novice come up to you and say he wanted to try champ, you would let him!? No chance. Plus you should factor in how many of those participates in traditional debate actually are passionate about debate. If a kid just decides to take debate for 4 years so he can put something on his college application, do you think he will enter in the traditional or champ division? Yeah, the answer is obvious. That's why those numbers are flawed.

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True Kansas, Missouri, and Texas schools consistently get Kansans but fun fact actually that always drives me nuts. Stephen Weil High School GPA 1.9 - School of attendance Emory (full scholarship). Matt Fischer High School GPA 2.1 - School of attendance Northwestern. Tell you what they sure as shit didn't get into either of those schools because of their academic records, it probably had a lot to do with them dominating the national circuit.

 

Is that true? how did you find out about their GPA's? What were their ACT/SAT scores?

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True Kansas, Missouri, and Texas schools consistently get Kansans but fun fact actually that always drives me nuts. XXXXXX GPA 1.9 - School of attendance Emory (full scholarship). XXXXX High School GPA 2.1 - School of attendance Northwestern. Tell you what they sure as shit didn't get into either of those schools because of their academic records, it probably had a lot to do with them dominating the national circuit.

 

You're saying this like it is a good thing?

 

If I was running a college program there is no way I'd recruit a kid with a GPA that low, I don't care how talented he/she is. It is not difficult to maintain a 3.0 GPA in high school, you get like a 2.5 for just showing up.

 

Edited to take the names out of Alex's post

Edited by t-money

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Clarifications:

 

1. Chris Sevedge is not now and never has been employed as a coach at STA. I'm very proud he's one of our alums, because he has exactly the respect and appreciation for the community that I'd like all Kansas debate grads to have.

 

2. I think it is a mistake for any high school student to think of a head coach as their "friend" for the same reason it is a mistake for parents to try to be their kid's "friend". Coaches are ultimately authority figures, no matter how much we and students may like and respect each other. Bear that in mind. You already have plenty of "friends".

 

Comment:

 

Several tournaments, including mine at one point, have made concerted efforts to offer the style of debate that people are requesting in this thread. By and large, teams don't enter, and the judges who express an interest in this kind of debate can't be bothered to show up unless it's a tournament with an established reputation. This is why coaches like me, who have no particular aversion to contemporary debate, stop offering it at our invitationals.

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You're saying this like it is a good thing?

 

If I was running a college program there is no way I'd recruit a kid with a GPA that low, I don't care how talented he/she is. It is not difficult to maintain a 3.0 GPA in high school, you get like a 2.5 for just showing up.

 

Huh. Seems like the story for a lot of high schoolers is bad GPA's, then get to college and the different learning environment benefits them. I can say this is true for close to 20 of the kids in my graduating class alone. But maybe my high school is different than others.

 

In the defense of the kids listed by Alex, they were in private schools. I doubt you get a 2.5 just for showing up there. Your criteria also seems to exclude a near majority of college freshman.

 

Also, a lot of schools near UDL districts recruit a majority of their kids from the very pockets you'd never recruit. Just because kids had a rough time in high school doesn't mean they shouldn't be recruited. <shrug>

Edited by dziegler

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