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PKennedy

The status of debate in Kansas

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Dude. You don't know what you're talking about. Mr. King has said several times in this thread that he doesn't oppose removing the restriction the problem is with a higher organization where no teacher has any influence that structures the way KSHSAA institutes policy. In order for the ToC to get approved by this organization JW would have to do all the paper work to get the ToC approved by this organization and reform some of the practices of the tournament to make it eligible for approval. However, JW has expressed no interest in changing or doing the paper work so this is literally a moot point. Would it be awesome if people from Kansas could go to the ToC every year they qualified not just their senior year? Obviously. But to quote a coach friend of mine at New Trier (albeit in the context of a debate about Zimbabwe) "Mugabe is like JW Patterson, the more you wish he would leave or die the longer he stays and lives." This is just something Kansans are going to have to wait out but those poised to take over the tournament when JW no longer has the position are aware of this problem and intend to address it when they can.

 

email me the paper work, ill get it filled out.

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also, even if i yall win that we cant get it added to the hs national principles association list, why cant we just get KSHAA to change the rules in the context of this one ruling?

Even if you think this wont work will you all come wiith me to a meeting and demand change.

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DISCLAIMER: The less than cordial nature of the following post is due to repeated ignorance despite multiple clarifications on position taken by other posters in this thread. That and nobody talks trash on Sevedge.

 

Chris Sevedge

The reason you dont understand the desire to go to the TOC is because you never went to one of the qualifiers.

Uh yes he did. I debated him at one of them.

 

The future of kansas debate is important because without it sevvdog wouldnt have a place to spend his nights magically escaping from his life, and furthermore it would restrict the ability of debaters like me to gain critical thinking skills which are pertinent in the real world. (thats the impact)

Ooooh bad things to say. We may be in a friendly argument but I don't know anyone that doesn't respect and like Chris. Step off. Talking like this makes you seem like an ignorant child.

 

Finally, dude, im a gonna be a junior in highschool, making fun of me is not like the cool thing to do. I know im very optimistic that i can create change and thats because i dont care about anything more than debate and my goal is to go to the TOC, and chris, im gonna do it.

1) You invite people to make fun of you. 2) Actual progress requires an informed opinion on the subject at hand. Probably the same reason why hippies are largely useless.

 

I got your back Chris.

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First of all I agree with many of Danny's points. Both sides have to agree that both debate styles are equal. Though I favored the more free-style debate when i debated i also saw the educational purpose of the other style. Yes Mr. Vollen i do agree that speed reading at 300 words per minute probably did not increase my ability to convince anyone of much of anything. However I think the research learned in the security K I ran my senior year has helped me tremendously in college (I wrote 2 essays on security IR my first semester using debate sources for most if not all the paper). Both styles are very educational. That is why I think that Kansas should be a place where both styles of debate are prcaticed.

 

That is probably the easier part to agree on. What is harder is how to preserve both styles. I am also a proponent of tournaments haveing two differnet divisions one for each style. However in recent years i have seen the support for this die (I think Mr Swanson's experince at ON is great example). Personally I think one thing that is beggingin to kill these divisions is the DCI bid system. T-high used to have one of the best Champ tournaments aroudn but now that they host a DCI Bid tournamnt they dont host hte champ style anymore considerin ghe DCI division seems to eat the champ division. That is one way the bid system hurts champ style. Another is how debaters are not willing to go to champ tournaments as much bcs they are usually smaller and usually not a DCI big. Again i reffer to the ON example. Around the time of our tournamnet i woudl tell many friends to come but lots didnt because they rather go to a bid tournament.

 

Next I think another thing that has been left out of this conversation is how vital Nat Circuit experience is to achieving success at NFL/CFL nationals. Kansas has indeed doen very well historically at nationals and I am very proud of all those who have had this success (some of my best freinds were part of this success, Kendall, PJ, Sarah, etc) BUT I would like to remind everyone of one thing. Kansas has never won nationals. Recently teh teams winning it have been national circuit teams (Damien, Colleyville, GBN etc). I am not saying that it is neessary to be nat circuit i am jsut pointing out that it definatly does not hurt.

 

Furthermore I do agree that the rule bannign the TOC should be lifted. It is slightly discouraging to know that even if you qualify you cant go. It definatly shows that the state wants to stay more traditional. HOwever i understand teh rules that lead to this decision (dont agree but understand) and am not willing ot argue much about it.

 

Finally this arguement that Ks debate is falling apart seems to be done every few years or so but I doubt any real truth behind the idea. Li Hu did a thread very similar a few years back and anotehr SME debater did one as well but i dont think that much has changed besides the ToC ruling. My soph yr i think a couple teams qualified to the TOC. My Junior year i think it was 2 as well (ONW SME) then last year i think it was two if not it was nearly two (SME hutch). This year was the first year that no one did but i dont think that shows a huge problem. I like to think the state's quality is about the same as previous not significantly less or more free style.

 

My $.01.... Im a poor college student....

 

Edit: I also agree with Danny about post round oral critiques. It helps when the round is freshin ones mind and helps with specific arguments.

Edited by guillermox

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email me the paper work, ill get it filled out.
In order for the ToC to get approved by this organization JW would have to do all the paper work to get the ToC approved by this organization and reform some of the practices of the tournament to make it eligible for approval.

You also can't get KSHSAA to just cave here for the same reason that we don't negotiate with terrorists. Validating one exceptions creates the possibilities for others. The 500 mile limit applies to MUCH more than just debate.

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http://www.cross-x.com/vb/showthread.php?t=979134

 

more reading ... Reid, this particular issue has been hashed out over and over and over and over again ...

I understand that its been a big debate over the years and i really dont want to piss anyone off but i feel like none of you care enough to be willing to fight.

the arguments you make are kinda like the answers people made to racism back in the day(yes i know its a stretch sorry)

yes we know that it sucks but live with it

Its inevitable just give up

but did it end up inevitable NO, because we fought and fought and fought my guess is going to be that the guys at KSHAA dont want to deal with 100 people walking into there office and saying we arent gonna leave until you change the rules and you know what this type of protest works because there is not enough of a reason to uphold it.

Come on guys, i know ive lost my composure a bit but we can find a way to do this and i dont wanna disrespect anyone on the way to doing it im just getting angry that all of you dont seem to care.

So please, you have nothing to lose, join with me to take down the arbitrary and unfair rule thats been initiated

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You also can't get KSHSAA to just cave here for the same reason that we don't negotiate with terrorists. Validating one exceptions creates the possibilities for others. The 500 mile limit applies to MUCH more than just debate.

 

Yeah, this is not really the point of the thread. It would honestly be easier to get the Principal's association to approve the ToC as a national tournament, thus making it an exception to the rule. BUT- I urge any coach who looks at this website (and will urge the head coach I work under) to support the adding the NDCA tournament to the list of national tournaments. This is a viable and responsible alternative to the ToC that is administered by very professional people and has no business being left out. Think of it like DCI national edition.

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You also can't get KSHSAA to just cave here for the same reason that we don't negotiate with terrorists. Validating one exceptions creates the possibilities for others. The 500 mile limit applies to MUCH more than just debate.

 

yeah except terrorism is bad debating at the elite tournament of the year isnt. your a good college debater so you know what im talking about. Its plain downright unfair. Why wont you at least try to help me? what do you have to lose? plus it will get me to shut up and i know you want that

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Yeah, this is not really the point of the thread. It would honestly be easier to get the Principal's association to approve the ToC as a national tournament, thus making it an exception to the rule. BUT- I urge any coach who looks at this website (and will urge the head coach I work under) to support the adding the NDCA tournament to the list of national tournaments. This is a viable and responsible alternative to the ToC that is administered by very professional people and has no business being left out. Think of it like DCI national edition.

I understand the Principles Association is the way to go for real reform thats what I was talking about above. The stuff about KSHSAA was a response to Reid saying KSHSAA should just make an exception to the ruling.

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I understand the Principles Association is the way to go for real reform thats what I was talking about above. The stuff about KSHSAA was a response to Reid saying KSHSAA should just make an exception to the ruling.

Agreed.

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Yeah, this is not really the point of the thread. It would honestly be easier to get the Principal's association to approve the ToC as a national tournament, thus making it an exception to the rule. BUT- I urge any coach who looks at this website (and will urge the head coach I work under) to support the adding the NDCA tournament to the list of national tournaments. This is a viable and responsible alternative to the ToC that is administered by very professional people and has no business being left out. Think of it like DCI national edition.

that would also be ballin patrick, but for real we should perm-do both solves all of both of our offense and comes to meet the same disad. it definitely outweighs

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yeah except terrorism is bad debating at the elite tournament of the year isnt. your a good college debater so you know what im talking about. Its plain downright unfair. Why wont you at least try to help me? what do you have to lose? plus it will get me to shut up and i know you want that

I am supporting the same thing as you dude. I'm saying your demands on coaching, KSHSAA, etc are futile and misguided because you don't know all the facts behind the origin and purpose of the exclusion.

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I am supporting the same thing as you dude. I'm saying your demands on coaching, KSHSAA, etc are futile and misguided because you don't know all the facts behind the origin and purpose of the exclusion.

heres my email: reid_wald (@) yahoo . com

educate me

im positive that we can get it done and im putting myself on the line here cant you keep me from falling. like whats the worst that will happen: theyll say no and we are in the same position. plus think how awesome it would be to storm kshaa with 100 people

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hmm. no, its like saying if im not going to be debating ellis allen and dtay why would i prepare like i was.

its like if you were in a competition against me in making bad analogies, you wouldnt have to prepare because you just won.

i dont mean to be a dick and i dont want to taint my ethos but i want to get the point across we need change.

 

And if this was a capitalization, punctuation, and all around making sense competition you would certainly lose. Always... ever.

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heres my email: reid_wald (@) yahoo . com

educate me

im positive that we can get it done and im putting myself on the line here cant you keep me from falling. like whats the worst that will happen: theyll say no and we are in the same position. plus think how awesome it would be to storm kshaa with 100 people

Reid, you aren't getting this. You are not even close to the first generation of Kansas Debaters that wants to go to the ToC. This has been tried, it did fail, and the causes aren't attitudinal they're structural and the structure hasn't changed. Contrary to what your elementary school guidance counselor may have said, even if you put your mind to an initiative if that initiative doesn't address the problem it WILL fail. Thus why we are all saying KSHSAA and some revolt is stupid. Kansas literally just has to play the waiting game until the ToC is ran by someone else. Good alternatives to what you're talking about would be things regarding approval by the Principals Association for tournaments like the NDCA.

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heres my email: reid_wald (@) yahoo . com

educate me

im positive that we can get it done and im putting myself on the line here cant you keep me from falling. like whats the worst that will happen: theyll say no and we are in the same position. plus think how awesome it would be to storm kshaa with 100 people

 

I think everyone needs to drop the attacking of Reid. Instead of taking advantage of his vulnerability being a younger debater, you could actually engage him and assist in instructing him in the right direction.

 

Reid:

 

Here are the things that I think you should come away from this thread knowing:

 

a) Improper grammar severely undercuts your credibility.

 

B) You need to start change outside of KS. In the instance of the TOC, you should start with JW Patterson. You mentioned to me that you had been talking to people like David Heidt about getting outside help on this issue. This would be the best way to change things with Patterson. I would also recommend getting in touch with someone like Jon Sharp because I believe that he would be able to get through to JW.

 

c) This is not a KSHSAA issue.

 

d) Being radical is going to get you nowhere. You have to very much understand the other side of the coin. Embrace it, appreciate it, and incorporate it into your approach. This is a race to the middle, not to the extremes. You will get NOWHERE by saying National Circuit > Kansas.

 

Let me know if you have any other questions.

 

**

EDIT:

 

e) Start working for the NDCA in addition to the TOC. That way if the TOC doesn't work out, you have another option.

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haha i appreciate the support alex

 

i agree with danny to an extent. reid, you put yourself in a tough spot by jumping into this. i doubt you'd read anything i wrote targeted as advice though, so hell with it. i will treat you like i would treat anyone else in this discussion.

The reason you dont understand the desire to go to the TOC is because you never went to one of the qualifiers.

erroneous. check your facts.

The type of debate creates a desire for more, and sevv i will get the rules changed even if i cant go its about the future of kansas debate. your sarcasm doesnt help your case.

my case? my case about what? my case that you should know what you're talking about before you post?

Try to construct an argument instead of just making fun of other people- Claim- Warrant- Impact- for example

i have here before. check your facts.

We should remove the barrier preventing students debating for high schools in kansas from debating at the Tournament of Champions because it increases education and is good for the future of debate.(thats the claim)

note only my prior post in this thread where i allude to the lack of anything that happens as a result of grassroots attempts or whatever you want to call these attempts at movements for overhauling policy debate in kansas when they originate on CX.com.. also i noticed you seem to have jettisoned the vast majority of your prior post. progress. nice.

The tournament of champions increases education because national circuit style debates require us to think faster, research more, and strategize better.

each of these claims is contestable and far from proven truth. even if i play along with your CWI construction for argumentation, you should know that the point of a warrant is to justify the claim--but that only works if your warrants are themselves justified. instead you've provided us with a claim, which you back up by further unsubstantiated claims. interesting traits of these claims: your adverb choices are vague and unspecific. they are extremely difficult, if not impossible, to attempt to prove categorically. faster, more, better? this isn't a kanye west song. even the individuals championing the existence of TOC debate on this thread would, i believe, agree that the forms of education are equally good--not that one is better than the other. now why would i say that? because danny specifically stated as much in his post. danny already knows that this is a contested issue because he's seen this discussion before and digested the information at hand. he knows his argument doesn't even need to rest on the claims which you superficially advance. why don't you follow his lead?

As exemplified by danny, why would i cut a ptx da in april if i wasnt going.

why on earth would you choose the example provided by danny that has had exactly one specific response on that thread when you are trying to persuade the individual in this thread who has already admitted to cutting politics updates in april [as well as march, as well as may, as well as february] his senior year despite the fact that he was not attending the TOC? this isn't even about how much you know about the topic of discussion--this is about reading..

Furthermore it is better for Kansas debate because it opens up new oppurtunities for students looking to pursue not only debate in highschool but as well in college, The NDT is a national circuit style tournament and big schools want that type of debater.

yet as all the old [no offense guys] talking heads will tell you as they have told everyone else in these discussions, the system we have has produced excellent debaters. college debaters. people from my school debate in college. and the ones that do are the ones that never went to a toc bid tournament. that's one example; there are several others. again, anecdotal evidence is weak. that having been said, empirical evidence is not on your side, in the sense that students pursuing debate in college do not need a toc pedigree.

Education is the biggest impact because without it victories become hollow, good coaches quit(patrick kennedy), and it makes the game less enjoyable overall until eventually the activity as a whole implodes and the game you love so very much is destroyed due to ignorance.

i'm scrambling to find where this portion of your argument stems from. i can only assume it is an extrapolation of your unproven [not only in your post, but throughout the community] assumption that education can best be provided through one form of debate or another. for every good thing about TOC as compared to kansas debate, there's a good thing about kansas debate as compared to TOC. also, whenever i read an argument and it sounds like a voter block from a topicality extension, that's negative persuasion.

The future of kansas debate is important because without it sevvdog wouldnt have a place to spend his nights magically escaping from his life,

haha i'm sorry do i strike you as one who slits my wrists over the future of the community? this may have been my favorite phrase in your whole post. i felt like a little kid again! maybe i'll get carded next time i go to an R movie! oh man those were the days

and furthermore it would restrict the ability of debaters like me to gain critical thinking skills which are pertinent in the real world.

this is just so nonsensical on so many levels...are you advocating the TOC as more real world than the standard in kansas experience? because that's wrong. are you advocating that the only way to access critical thinking impacts is through a TOC style of debate? because that's wrong. are you suggesting that these rules you indict are somehow adversely affecting your learning ability? because that's wrong.

Finally, dude, im a gonna be a junior in highschool, making fun of me is not like the cool thing to do.

this is where you're firing blanks..i've never acted with the end goal of being cool. jesus kid, i debated for three years. i think there's an important aspect to my posts, and perhaps it came off as excessively harsh, because, frankly, that's the only way i saw it yielding a response; but the point is some of us still do care about the community even if we're states away [yo danny]. and those of us want the voices of the community to organize their efforts productively. maybe you're going to end up causing the change you say you will, hell if i know [i have an educated guess]. but i do know you'll never make it happen using the approach you're trying to right now. and you'll never make it happen through cross-x. you'll never make it happen if you don't understand the circumstances that define what you perceive to be the problem on a much more in depth level than you currently do. so, yeah, i'm going to ridicule the way you're thinking now, because it's not very obvious that you're thinking.

I know im very optimistic that i can create change and thats because i dont care about anything more than debate and my goal is to go to the TOC, and chris, im gonna do it.

interesting that of all the reasons you tout the TOC as this great thing, your goal is not to get the education you say the TOC can bring you, but rather to simply go to the TOC itself..

P.S.

your own debate team agrees with me, they all want change. as i said earlier just because you dont believe in national circuit debate doesnt mean that you should prevent those of us that want to from doing it and dude why not its a struggle that even if we dont achieve is worth fighting for.

my own debate team? just because a team exists that still reads my files doesn't mean that i exert any influence over them. i believe you are referring to dubois timmons and groeblacher's team. i'm just an old guy who shows up to help occasionally. and i would expect different people on a team to have differing opinions on things. if my hypothetical team agreed with me on everything, we would be a shitty team.

 

oh by the way... where did you get the idea that i don't believe in national circuit debate?

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In light of all the Reid v. Sev bashing above, I would like to suggest an alternative path.

 

Why not allow a tournament we can go to once a year that is past 500 miles? I believe Missouri has one, Pembroke was able to go to Harvard this year, because of it to my understandings. I don't understand why we can't just have a freeby? This would solve a lot of issues, now teams who do get two bids just to have to qualify for NFL or CFL (and if you can get two bids I honestly don't think that would be a challenge) and can use one of those three second semester tournaments as the TOC. This would make a lot of sense in my opinion. Furthermore, with this in place, couldn't we skip over the High School Principle Association controversy with this idea?

 

Also, I would like to point out that Danny Mapes is the man...that is all.

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Normally, I try to stay above the fray and do not respond to these types of threads, but after graduating from high school and now out of the Kansas system, I might be inclined to say a few words.

 

My first point is that I think everyone in this forum has made a valid point depending on their school of thought or their region. There are several points that I agree with in Kennedy's post about sometimes it can be hard for traditional coaches to want to adapt or to let their kids go to different style of tournaments. I also know from experience that, especially in my region, it can be very hard to run the kritiks and counterplans that I wanted to because of lay judges. I went to JDI for the last 2 years and I can tell you that sometimes I found it frustrating that some of the stuff I couldn't run because of difficulties in the judging pool, but I also have to say that sometimes it is just mere traveling issues. My school was on a very tight budget and sometimes we could not go to east Kansas to where many of the champ/DCI tournaments were. Spending the night was something that we did rarely. Now, I am not blaming my coach for that at all. Mrs. Watson was an excellent coach and I will never forget the things she taught me. What I am trying to say is that sometimes it is budgetary difficulties and sometimes students not looking at it from the coaches perspective. We all want the community to change and become TOC or national circuit style, but sometimes we are all stuck with what we have.

 

Another thing that I would like to point out is that it seems every year someone posts that same type of message about changing Kansas debate in some way. I know that 2 years ago the Hutch boys had many of the same complaints. Like someone in this forum said, maybe people should actually do something about it, instead of just complaining about it on crossx. I'm not sure that coaches particulary like it when kids get on and complain about Kansas debate, sometimes saying things that they regret and bashing other coaches in the process. I'm not saying this forum will be that way, but in the past that is what these arguments turn into.

 

Finally, as far as solutions I think that if fundamental changes will be made in the way that people want them to happen then people simply need to take action. Complaining on crossx will get you nowhere, but talking to your coach in a constructive way might. Sometimes people don't like counterplans and kritiks because they really don't understand them. Maybe discuss with your coach one afternoon about what their views are about them, you might be pleasantly surprised to think that maybe that inherit bias has some merit. Now you can never change judges thoughts completely on these topics, you will always have bias judges (even in the "objective" college debate judging world). The final thing that people out of high school can do is judge. People would think that this is a given, but many times high school students complain about high school judging and then don't want to judge when they reach college if they don't do debate. It always seems that they are sooo "busy" that they can't judge. This is really kind of ridiculous. There is an old argument in religious circles that you can make time for God for those who think that they are too busy. In a similar way you can make time for debate and to judge. Now, I won't be living in Kansas, but when I am in VA I plan to judge in my area, in debate and forensics because I feel that I owe something to activity. A former college forensics student once told me "teach the activity something, since it has taught you so much."

 

One final thought, then I swear I will end this lengthy post is that Great Bend High School squad numbers were down from past years. I was the only senior and my partner was a novice, he will be a second year leading the team next year. Are other programs losing numbers, I once heard that WaRu had to cap their debate team, but I know that other squads are down. I know that this deviates from the thread a little, but I think that maybe it is an issue worth discussing if not here but somewhere else. I would hate to see debate and forensics programs die because of all the wonderful things that they taught us! That is my $0.02 as it were.

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I think everyone needs to drop the attacking of Reid. Instead of taking advantage of his vulnerability being a younger debater, you could actually engage him and assist in instructing him in the right direction.

 

Reid:

 

Here are the things that I think you should come away from this thread knowing:

 

a) Improper grammar severely undercuts your credibility.

 

B) You need to start change outside of KS. In the instance of the TOC, you should start with JW Patterson. You mentioned to me that you had been talking to people like David Heidt about getting outside help on this issue. This would be the best way to change things with Patterson. I would also recommend getting in touch with someone like Jon Sharp because I believe that he would be able to get through to JW.

 

c) This is not a KSHSAA issue.

 

d) Being radical is going to get you nowhere. You have to very much understand the other side of the coin. Embrace it, appreciate it, and incorporate it into your approach. This is a race to the middle, not to the extremes. You will get NOWHERE by saying National Circuit > Kansas.

 

Let me know if you have any other questions.

 

**

EDIT:

 

e) Start working for the NDCA in addition to the TOC. That way if the TOC doesn't work out, you have another option.

 

Ok Danny ill try to work outside the system. Im sorry to everyone for getting upset over this and your all probably right that it wont work to directly engage KSHAA. I just firmly believe that the rule should be changed. Sevv, im sorry for any offense i respect you as a debater your a pretty good coach for STA as well. Im sorry i had to be a jerk to you as well as everyone else, and Mr. Fowler you are right i would most definitely lose in a competition of grammar. It's something i will work on because Danny is right getting angry and using atrocious grammar is not a good idea. I hope that this year we can try to make things work and get the ToC to be considered a national tournament. I shouldnt have gotten so angry and i really am sorry. My angry rants just destroy my ethos among you guys and thats the last thing i want to do. Hopefully we can all do this together in order to better the progress of kansas debate and to make our state more competitive at a national level.

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Tom Volen is always going to think that NFL and CFL are the "national circuit" and thats fine while guys like danny patrick and i will always believe that greenhill and the TOC is where its at.
This may just be the funniest post I’ve ever read (intentional or not). Thank you very much!

 

A point that I almost forgot- colleges are looking for people who are smart debaters, people who can engage effectively in NDT style debate.
This was equally entertaining. Patrick! Seriously, you pick the year in which home-grown kids win NDT to make this argument? That is hilarious! Are you really contending that there are major college debate programs that kids are being excluded from due to TOC not being sanctioned?

 

I know tons of kids the opposite way. So while it is not a universal motivator, for many {TOC} is.
I’ve been avoiding responding because I really did not want to give the impression of teaming up against you, but I really wanted to respond to this. While I politely disagree with you that TOC is all that you make it out to be, I will give you that it was your goal. A goal that you thought was achievable for you and thus you went for it and it was denied to you. In the past I may have been condescending about this, but I truly felt bad that you were denied your goal. That sucks.

 

But, today, if TOC is the goal of any student(s) in the state of Kansas (especially if there are tons), well that student(s) really should reevaluate their priorities. It is against the rules. Whether you agree with them or not, I would suggest doing everything you can to be successful within the rules. You can push to change the rules, but until the rules are changed, please don’t make your ultimate goal something that isn’t an option. That would be like me making it my lifelong goal to win the gold medal in softball. Even if I lost more weight than Jared and actually got good at softball (or if it was an Olympic sport anymore), I can’t be on the team because it is against the rules.

 

I am very encouraged to believe that Roger Solt and the
University of Kentucky would be more than glad to fill out the paper work to bring our state on board. Also, if we create a consensus among coaches that the change needs to be done than im sure that KSHAA will understand.
Sorry dude, you are wrong. TOC knows the situation. Many coaches have begged for them to simply fill out the paperwork. They won’t. NFL and CFL fill out the paperwork, TOC doesn’t. Call them yourself and try to convince them!

 

The reason you dont understand the desire to go to the TOC is because you never went to one of the qualifiers. The type of debate creates a desire for more, and sevv i will get the rules changed even if i cant go its about the future of
kansas debate. your sarcasm doesnt help your case.

 

i dont care about anything more than debate and my goal is to go to the TOC, and chris, im gonna do it.

Really? You have 2 years of debate experience and now TOC is your goal even though the entire time that you have been in debate TOC has been a restricted tournament. I understand Mapes making it his goal, but YOU? That is at best illogical. Is NDT your goal as a senior even though it is only offered to college debaters? At least Mapes knows what he is talking about when he refers to TOC. What is your experience to say it is anything more than an over-hyped tournament for the “cool” debaters to go to?

 

I actually saw some posts that I thought were progressive. Concepts like hosting a champ division regardless of the #’s or more college kids judging are things that are actionable and over time may make a difference. However, here’s another thought. If the #’s are down for champ division, maybe those divisions aren’t as universally popular as some of you would like to believe. Does it say something that there are only 12 kids interested in circuit style in the area but there are 200 kids interested in a more traditional style? I think that might be democracy in motion, just that some of you don’t like it.

 

And I think the SQ is the balance of all styles. Pick a weekend, any weekend and with the 500 mile rule I can find a division or tournament with every style I want. There is one single tournament, TOC, that is not in the SQ. And within our current system we could include it if the people who ran that tournament did what others are willing to do. So, why the call for change?

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And I think the SQ is the balance of all styles. Pick a weekend, any weekend and with the 500 mile rule I can find a division or tournament with every style I want. There is one single tournament, TOC, that is not in the SQ. And within our current system we could include it if the people who ran that tournament did what others are willing to do. So, why the call for change?

 

I'm trying to stay out of this 'side picking' as possible, but I will say this portion of your post struck me because of the lens you have to look at tournaments to make the statement.

 

If you just do debate because it's fun and you enjoy spending your friday/saturday doing it, your perspective makes perfect sense. I go to Maine East and Greenhill for the heck of it and am happy.

 

However, it seems like a lot of students that seek out this style of debate seem to also seek out the competitive features it entails - the 'circuit experience', the TOC, etc. These kids want to clear at the TOC with an emphasis similar to that of a drug addiction. They don't want to just clear at Greenhill, have a K round or two, and be home to happy good ole' Kansas..

 

I think the most fundamental break in the community are those that see tournaments as something enjoyable to do on a weekend, with some educational merit, or something that is from a competitive drive to succeed in that area.

 

Questions to clarify some things for me:

 

You say the TOC isn't allowed because they don't do things others will do. What are those things? Is it tournament date? Is it distance? Is it various things that go down at the tournament that aren't considered legit? How is TOC different from NFL and CFL? I also think these answers should come with a fundamental reason why those are justified. Seems to me that if those rules aren't that justified and "are just the rules", that's a reason to work to get rid of those rules or alter them, not accept them as 'inevitable.'

 

What do you consider a balance of types? Zero restriction on local and restriction on people leaving/doing champ - balance of what? This might just be my leanings on the issue, but the current setup seems anything but balanced. TOC circuit kids can't do the TOC thing because of restrictions. Local kids can do w/e. Seems fundamentally unbalanced.

 

Have you considered the effects of banning the TOC on the appearance it gives TOC circuit tournaments? How does it look to a middle of the road coach who doesn't care where their kids go, but see they want to go to a tournament qualifyer geared at a tournament not sanctioned by the Principles Association? Do these kids ever really get that opportunity?

 

Hypothetically, what can shift this appearance? It semes like DCI bidding KCKCC is an initial first step. What changes have to happen for the TOC to be deemed 'legit'?

 

 

Also - what things would the TOC have to agree to to sign the Principals Association paperwork? There is probably something there that would hinder the tourney or put bad restrictions on it, I imagine. As much as I enjoy mocking and making fun of UKentucky (chuckle), there's probably a logical, realistic reason for why they aren't filling out paperwork, *assuming* your analysis is correct.

Edited by dziegler

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im not choosing sides but here is my lil input. i think that allowing the ToC would be awesome it would give those who want to go the opportunitie. And kansas debate needs to open up and be open minded about any argument and not just shut you out when yuou hear criticism or k. its just terribly pathetic.

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