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PKennedy

The status of debate in Kansas

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Many people are missing the boat when posting on this thread. Patrick isnt leading a crusade against kansas debate and saying that everyone who disagrees with him should conform but rather he is saying that your forms of exclusion are bad because they decrease education and limit opportunities. Tom Volen is always going to think that NFL and CFL are the "national circuit" and thats fine while guys like danny patrick and i will always believe that greenhill and the TOC is where its at. There is no reason why we cant do both and end the fighitng and the exclusion. The rule that teams cant go to the TOC is incredibly stupid and discourages debaters like myself that believe in contemporary debate from doing research and trying our best. Anyone who cares about the activity should rise up and march to Topeka and fight the current rule. Ive got one question for every debater and coach: if i qualify to the ToC and want to go, why shouldnt i be able to? Today we can create change and a more prosperous future, all that we need is to create a coalition to fight the current rules banning the TOC.

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The problem is that, and all coaches that read this don't come back as though we're in the wrong here because this is a matter of opinion not fact, virtually all of the people you're telling to go out and judge get this negative and hostile position toward the Kansas debate community because they don't feel welcome when they go to tournaments. Plenty of times I've seen qualified and incredibly bright judges that do all they can to remain un-biased get trash talked by coaching and in turn by debaters who follow their coaches lead because someone who, many times, wasn't even watching the debate thinks it was an unfair, unjustified, and stupid decision. News flash to coaches that may not have realized this but about 90% of the time you ask your debaters to play back the round and tell you what happened they're going to tell you a story that has lots of elements of the debate but ALWAYS makes it look like they won.

Even if the coaching in this state feels like this isn't accurate this is how a lot people feel when they go to judge and its the reason why a lot of them have no real incentive to go judge anymore.

 

Bullshit. I've judged regularly for over a decade and have only had a problem in about 2 rounds that I can remember. I've seen or heard of only a handful of incidents in that time. I can't say that it never happens but it's not frequent enough to call it a widespread problem. Even if it does happen, judge anyway because it's about the kids and not the coaches.

 

Ms Burgett at Waru would be happy to have you judge at her tournament. As would Mr Dechant at Shawnee Heights, Mr Williams at Newton, Ms Fellers at Wichita East, Mr Hibbs at Winfield, Ms Newton at Valley Center, Mr Swanson, Mr King etc etc...

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Here is my solution for you people that are calling out coaches:

 

1) Don't go to "champ unfriendly" tournaments.

There are plenty of tournaments and plenty of coaches that would love to have you around. There are some that wish you would just stay home. Go to the tournaments that want you there. If you are getting paid to be there by a squad: tough luck and do your job.

 

2) Limit your oral critiques to 8 minutes max.

90% of the coaches that do not like oral critiques don't like them because they slow the tournament down. Write your ballot, preferably a good constructive ballot, find hand in the ballot, and then give a short oral critique to hammer home the important parts of your RFD. If this speech lasts more than 8 minutes, you have talked too long. Gun for 5 minutes. If your round is running late, you might have to sacrifice some of this time.

 

I can tell you McComas' disdain for oral critiques is not the content, it is the length, and that they often take away from the comments on the ballots.

 

3) You are not as good as judge as you think.

I think everyone needs to hear this every once in a while. It's just true. For all of us.

 

4) Don't expect to be "top of bracket"

Computer, randomness, and the judge setting process dictate who is in those rounds. Judge whatever round you are asked to be in and enjoy it. Some of the rounds I have judged in the bottom of the bracket and in open, JV, and novice have been the most rewarding rounds I have judged. If you really are there to help the educational experience of the kids ... you should be thrilled to judge some of these lesser rounds, because your comments can really help teach these kids.

 

5) Put in your time, gain respect, and you will be rewarded

I've had my fair share of run-ins at tournaments. When I was younger I never backed down from a confrontation when I thought something was wrong. With all things considered, it is a mild shock that I am still round the debate community. Nevertheless I am and some of the people I have once battled now enjoy my presence. So let me tell you this: coaches notice well written ballots, praise about judges from their students, and appreciate the dedication and selflessness of college kids that come judge frequently.

 

Follow these rules and you should have a much better time at tournaments you are judging ... take these suggestions how you wish ... i'm almost a dinosaur around these parts now ...

 

/bd

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I think that being able to compete at the ToC is only an incentive if you believe that you will be allowed to compete at that tournament, which I understand was the case in your instance.

 

I have been very open with my students that if they qualified to the ToC, they wouldn't be able to compete at it unless it was the final tournament of the HS Debate career of both them and their partner. They not only accepted that the ToC was not an option, but worked as hard as they could to prepare for the qualifiers anyway. I think there were several reasons for that: prepping for nationals, enjoyment of that style of debate, trying to get scholarships for college.

 

At no point am I arguing against the ToC in these posts. As I said before, I truly wish that we were allowed to compete at it if we qualify. However, I still, and will, believe that NFL and CFL are quality capstones for the debate skills that were developed at circuit tournaments.

 

To your point about the billionaires, I would propose that if they could not communicate their ideas to a lay person, that they would not have been successful and would not have made the money that they did (which you claim is the end goal for them). If they were only computer geniuses, they would not have been successful. Anyway, my point is that NFL and an endpoint for circuit style debate is the combining of all debate skills, not just the perfection of one. Please don't engage me in debate about the diversity of skills it takes to succeed on the national circuit. I am merely the bus driver that gets them to those tournaments, and am not the coach that makes them successful at those tournaments. In other words, I can not intelligently engage in that debate.

 

When you ask why the ToC isn't mentioned in the same vain as NFL and NCFL, I hope you are not addressing that to me. I have said many times that I would like to see it viewed that way. Along those lines, I obviously have no offensive reason as to why ToC is bad. All I have are the rumors that I have heard about the "social aspect" of that tournament that I would not want to expose high school students to. Again, I can't speak intelligently about that because I've obviously never attended.

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The rule that teams cant go to the TOC is incredibly stupid and discourages debaters like myself that believe in contemporary debate from doing research and trying our best.

 

Seriously? If one of my debaters would have posted that while I was coaching, they would not be traveling to any tournament anywhere. There was a 100 mile rule when I debated. I never debated outside of Kansas. I worked my ass off to be the best debater I could possibly be. Why would exclusion of the TOC be a reason for you to try less hard?

 

Going along with this line of reasoning: My current employer does not have a travel budget in this hard time. I really wanted to go to the Gartner IT Expo this year. Should I not try my best at my job now?

 

/bd

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Here is my solution for you people that are calling out coaches:

 

1) Don't go to "champ unfriendly" tournaments.

There are plenty of tournaments and plenty of coaches that would love to have you around. There are some that wish you would just stay home. Go to the tournaments that want you there. If you are getting paid to be there by a squad: tough luck and do your job.

 

2) Limit your oral critiques to 8 minutes max.

90% of the coaches that do not like oral critiques don't like them because they slow the tournament down. Write your ballot, preferably a good constructive ballot, find hand in the ballot, and then give a short oral critique to hammer home the important parts of your RFD. If this speech lasts more than 8 minutes, you have talked too long. Gun for 5 minutes. If your round is running late, you might have to sacrifice some of this time.

 

I can tell you McComas' disdain for oral critiques is not the content, it is the length, and that they often take away from the comments on the ballots.

 

3) You are not as good as judge as you think.

I think everyone needs to hear this every once in a while. It's just true. For all of us.

 

4) Don't expect to be "top of bracket"

Computer, randomness, and the judge setting process dictate who is in those rounds. Judge whatever round you are asked to be in and enjoy it. Some of the rounds I have judged in the bottom of the bracket and in open, JV, and novice have been the most rewarding rounds I have judged. If you really are there to help the educational experience of the kids ... you should be thrilled to judge some of these lesser rounds, because your comments can really help teach these kids.

 

5) Put in your time, gain respect, and you will be rewarded

I've had my fair share of run-ins at tournaments. When I was younger I never backed down from a confrontation when I thought something was wrong. With all things considered, it is a mild shock that I am still round the debate community. Nevertheless I am and some of the people I have once battled now enjoy my presence. So let me tell you this: coaches notice well written ballots, praise about judges from their students, and appreciate the dedication and selflessness of college kids that come judge frequently.

 

Follow these rules and you should have a much better time at tournaments you are judging ... take these suggestions how you wish ... i'm almost a dinosaur around these parts now ...

 

/bd

 

This is responsive to college kids whining about not judging champ. I don't see how this at all replies to a single post in this thread.

 

Not trying to be a jerk. I just don't think you read much more than "Patrick Kennedy is whining about debate."

 

EDIT: Probably responsive to Alex. But ad-hom at best to any other comment in the thread.

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Fowler,

 

The more that you say "it was a down year" the more insulting you are being to the juniors and seniors that competed this year, and quite well I might add. You may say that it is not your goal to insult them, that you are merely expressing your opinion, but it is demeaning none the less.

 

That's just my opinion having read your posts.

 

I'm not meaning to insult anybody. I had the pleasure of judging your top team on a couple of occasions and they were excellent. There were a few teams this year that I thought really stood out, but as a whole I feel the circuit was weaker. This is not meant to in any way, demean the accomplishments of those teams (like yours) that stood out.

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Ive got one question for every debater and coach: if i qualify to the ToC and want to go, why shouldnt i be able to?

 

I think I already answered this. IT IS NOT A NATIONAL TOURNAMENT according the the HS Principals' Association. Thus KSHSAA is not going to break its own rule for a tournament that the Principal's Association does not sanction. This debate has been had several times and it isn't going to change at KSHSAA.

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I think that being able to compete at the ToC is only an incentive if you believe that you will be allowed to compete at that tournament, which I understand was the case in your instance.

 

I have been very open with my students that if they qualified to the ToC, they wouldn't be able to compete at it unless it was the final tournament of the HS Debate career of both them and their partner. They not only accepted that the ToC was not an option, but worked as hard as they could to prepare for the qualifiers anyway. I think there were several reasons for that: prepping for nationals, enjoyment of that style of debate, trying to get scholarships for college.

 

At no point am I arguing against the ToC in these posts. As I said before, I truly wish that we were allowed to compete at it if we qualify. However, I still, and will, believe that NFL and CFL are quality capstones for the debate skills that were developed at circuit tournaments.

 

To your point about the billionaires, I would propose that if they could not communicate their ideas to a lay person, that they would not have been successful and would not have made the money that they did (which you claim is the end goal for them). If they were only computer geniuses, they would not have been successful. Anyway, my point is that NFL and an endpoint for circuit style debate is the combining of all debate skills, not just the perfection of one. Please don't engage me in debate about the diversity of skills it takes to succeed on the national circuit. I am merely the bus driver that gets them to those tournaments, and am not the coach that makes them successful at those tournaments. In other words, I can not intelligently engage in that debate.

 

When you ask why the ToC isn't mentioned in the same vain as NFL and NCFL, I hope you are not addressing that to me. I have said many times that I would like to see it viewed that way. Along those lines, I obviously have no offensive reason as to why ToC is bad. All I have are the rumors that I have heard about the "social aspect" of that tournament that I would not want to expose high school students to. Again, I can't speak intelligently about that because I've obviously never attended.

 

Another option, however, is certainly the National Debate Coaches' Association national tournament. It kind of piggybacks off of the ToC tournament's bid system and includes a range of other tournaments in its consideration of qualifiers, and would certainly be an excellent foil to NFL and NCFL. I think that this solves a lot of the issues with the potentially unsavory parts of the ToC, if they indeed still exist.

 

A point that I almost forgot- colleges are looking for people who are smart debaters, people who can engage effectively in NDT style debate. In order to be recruited, it may take some engagement at national tournaments. Obviously, NFL is one option, but there are certainly others that could be effective alternatives, like the NDCA, for larger schools that do not regularly recruit out of the NCFL and NFL pools. It is certainly possible to get a scholarship without debating on the national circuit, but it is almost as certainly difficult to do so. KU does not give out scholarships to debate, Fort Hays no longer has a program and KState can't give every debater a scholarship. I have no knowledge about the state of Witchita State's scholarships, but I'm sure that between them and KState they can't cover all of the interested and talented debaters across the state. Remember, our state now has one of the qualifying tournaments to the ToC- we have the talent to make it one of the most competative.

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Follow these rules and you should have a much better time at tournaments you are judging ... take these suggestions how you wish ... i'm almost a dinosaur around these parts now ...

 

/bd

 

if bd was a dinosaur, he would be the most awesome kind ever. now the question is, what dinosaur is the most awesome? is it the one that can travel far and wide, with great speed and word efficiency? or is it the one that thinks perhaps a tick slower, but more in depth?

 

 

by the way, it appears that many people who were itching to argue about certain restrictions not explicitly mentioned view this thread as tangential enough to those discussions to have those discussions. i'm not indicting it, only wondering how it is that talks about very specific trends in the community always end up at the big picture [and big text, sometimes] point of CHANGE BEING NECESSARY.

 

i appreciate the persistence, and obviously i do not know the intentions of the OP with regard to having a discussion about this, but i wonder how relevant it really is to this discussion. to my eye, it's not very relevant in the sense that it adds to the discussion so much as it fuels certain fires.

 

wasn't this thread about the individual actors in the state and their role in promoting equally two separate styles of debate? wasn't it about eliminating dogma? how does the kansas high schools principals association come into play? that's a rhetorical question--i can read, so i know how it came into play--but why do we always jump from point to point? i feel like patrick's original post was pretty well thought out, albeit lacking a solution right away [and obviously i had my differences with it] but that vagueness at the solution level seems to have encouraged a lack of specificity throughout the rest of the thread as opposed to discussions where some improvement could even THEORETICALLY be made through the discourse on this website--because with all due respect, i think the prevailing opinion is that this website will never function as a changing agent regarding the TOC business.

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This is responsive to college kids whining about not judging champ. I don't see how this at all replies to a single post in this thread.

 

Not trying to be a jerk. I just don't think you read much more than "Patrick Kennedy is whining about debate."

 

EDIT: Probably responsive to Alex. But ad-hom at best to any other comment in the thread.

 

In this thread there are a couple lines of arguments:

 

1) Kansas sucks because we can't go to the TOC

2) Kansas coaches suck because they don't like counter plans and critiques

3) I don't get called back to judge because coaches hate college debaters

 

I responded to #3. The one sure fire way to start moving the community in a different direction is for the college kids to judge at tournaments. This will only happen if you go to tournaments that will use you, play by some of their rules, and show a little bit of humility in the process. That is the crux of my post.

 

That will get you a lot more traction than trying to change the 500 mile rule, get TOC included as a national tournament, and forcing coaches to change.

 

Trust me. I read the entire thread. If you can search the archives every year for the last 10 years to get my thoughts on the TOC/Kansas issue. Didn't think that needed any more of my input.

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I think that being able to compete at the ToC is only an incentive if you believe that you will be allowed to compete at that tournament, which I understand was the case in your instance.

 

I know tons of kids the opposite way. So while it is not a universal motivator, for many it is.

 

To your point about the billionaires, I would propose that if they could not communicate their ideas to a lay person, that they would not have been successful and would not have made the money that they did (which you claim is the end goal for them). If they were only computer geniuses, they would not have been successful.

 

I totally agree. That is why everyone should be exposed to all sorts of debating.

 

All I have are the rumors that I have heard about the "social aspect" of that tournament that I would not want to expose high school students to.

 

Can you elaborate? I am not going to engage in an argument, I am just genuinely interested in the criticisms that you have heard just so that I can know what they are.

 

Seriously? If one of my debaters would have posted that while I was coaching, they would not be traveling to any tournament anywhere. There was a 100 mile rule when I debated. I never debated outside of Kansas. I worked my ass off to be the best debater I could possibly be. Why would exclusion of the TOC be a reason for you to try less hard?

 

Raise your hand if you are going to cut politics updates in early April if you are not going to the TOC....

 

Hm... No one would...

 

That's only one example. I can give more.

 

Going along with this line of reasoning: My current employer does not have a travel budget in this hard time. I really wanted to go to the Gartner IT Expo this year. Should I not try my best at my job now?

 

/bd

 

Yeah ok this is absurd. I think that a more appropriate analogy would be the discussion of bonuses in the investment banking world. Why would brilliant individuals work 110 hour weeks if they are only going to make $60K or so in a city with enormous living expenses like NYC? Answer: They aren't. That is why you have seen a tremendous brain drain away from TARP-receiving firms as well as the flight of many to european based firms which do not have to deal with compensation issues.

Edited by Lamp

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Raise your hand if you are going to cut politics updates in early April if you are not going to the TOC....

 

Hm... No one would...

 

That's only one example. I can give more.

i abhor arguments resting solely on personal anecdote so instead of making an argument i will just note that somewhere the 2007 version of myself is raising his hand

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An expo is rarely a reward.

 

Clearly you've never been to the Gartner Expo :)

 

I echo Bryan's words here, the only way to change the community is to go out there and be a part of it. You will encounter difficult people in all aspects of your life, but that doesn't mean you should never go outside. It is easy to talk the talk, the hard part is driving to Winfield 6AM on a Saturday morning so you can actually walk the walk.

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wasn't this thread about the individual actors in the state and their role in promoting equally two separate styles of debate?

 

right on. but it is a question straight into a very grey area of our activity. Everyone's lines are drawn differently. Anderson illustrated those pretty good above. Personally, I think that Kansas has done a pretty good job over the years creating debaters that can succeed at every level. To me, that is a good barometer of our activity

 

And I still do not see why being able to go to the TOC is the ultimate goal for debaters. But, that is probably something I will never be able to see.

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Can you elaborate? I am not going to engage in an argument, I am just genuinely interested in the criticisms that you have heard just so that I can know what they are.

 

No, because it would only be hearsay since I have heard it second and third hand. I have no first hand experience.

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I would like to draw upon a quote from jimmy khalif

"your making responses but they arent responsive"

Literally no one has given a legitimate response as to why we SHOULDNT be able to go to the TOC except that well kansas prohibits it.

Mr. King, you say that i cant go to the TOC because KSHAA doesnt allow us to go to tournaments because its not listed as a national tournament by the high school principles association. You pointed to the answer your self, i am very encouraged to believe that Roger Solt and the University of Kentucky would be more than glad to fill out the paper work to bring our state on board. Also, if we create a consensus among coaches that the change needs to be done than im sure that KSHAA will understand. How do we call into session a rules meeting?

 

What would i have to do, Mr. King, to convince you to change your mind and join on board to fight the current set of rules.

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Clearly you've never been to the Gartner Expo :)

 

I echo Bryan's words here, the only way to change the community is to go out there and be a part of it. You will encounter difficult people in all aspects of your life, but that doesn't mean you should never go outside. It is easy to talk the talk, the hard part is driving to Winfield 6AM on a Saturday morning so you can actually walk the walk.

 

Haha you are correct. Maybe I should go.

 

I agree with everyone who is saying that we need to begin to change the community through engaging it. If it was financially feasible for me to judge every weekend I would do it. But coming home from Bloomington runs me a few hundreds dollars so there is just no way.

 

Sev's right, cross-x doesn't change anything. So with that I'm going to go back to work.

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What would i have to do, Mr. King, to convince you to change your mind and join on board to fight the current set of rules.

 

Nothing. You can't. It's not a KSHSAA issue. A "Coach Revolt" would do nothing, except make those revolting look stupid.

 

Besides, while I value all forms of debate, I also value our State Tournaments and respect our State Association.

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I would like to draw upon a quote from jimmy khalif

oh boy i bet this is going to be inspiring and original

"your making responses but they arent responsive"

damn i was wrong

Literally no one has given a legitimate response as to why we SHOULDNT be able to go to the TOC except that well kansas prohibits it.

sounds like somebody hasn't been reading all these threads for years, and also is quite experienced at using multisyllabic words in debates to replace specific claims when he isn't quite certain what he's talking about

Mr. King, you say that i cant go to the TOC because KSHAA doesnt allow us to go to tournaments because its not listed as a national tournament by the high school principles association.

sounds like somebody just contradicted the statement he made one quote fragment ago

You pointed to the answer your self, i am very encouraged to believe that Roger Solt and the University of Kentucky would be more than glad to fill out the paper work to bring our state on board.

sounds like something that's out of the hands of the kansas community

Also, if we create a consensus among coaches that the change needs to be done than im sure that KSHAA will understand.

oh see now this is just precious.

How do we call into session a rules meeting?

facepalm moment 1

What would i have to do, Mr. King, to convince you to change your mind and join on board to fight the current set of rules.

and twice for effect

 

seriously dude, whyyyy do you posttttttt on these threadsssssss

Edited by SEVVDOG
added a snappy title
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What would i have to do, Mr. King, to convince you to change your mind and join on board to fight the current set of rules.

Dude. You don't know what you're talking about. Mr. King has said several times in this thread that he doesn't oppose removing the restriction the problem is with a higher organization where no teacher has any influence that structures the way KSHSAA institutes policy. In order for the ToC to get approved by this organization JW would have to do all the paper work to get the ToC approved by this organization and reform some of the practices of the tournament to make it eligible for approval. However, JW has expressed no interest in changing or doing the paper work so this is literally a moot point. Would it be awesome if people from Kansas could go to the ToC every year they qualified not just their senior year? Obviously. But to quote a coach friend of mine at New Trier (albeit in the context of a debate about Zimbabwe) "Mugabe is like JW Patterson, the more you wish he would leave or die the longer he stays and lives." This is just something Kansans are going to have to wait out but those poised to take over the tournament when JW no longer has the position are aware of this problem and intend to address it when they can.

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good use of quote alex. very good. plus rep for you. i hope you don't ever get to the point where you have so much rep on this site that you cease to be someone who you would tell people to listen to in your public service announcement installations.

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The rule that teams cant go to the TOC is incredibly stupid and discourages debaters like myself that believe in contemporary debate from doing research and trying our best.

 

This is a little like saying that you're going to quit basketball in grade school because of some new NBA rule.

 

Not 100% sure that this rule effects you.

Edited by t-money

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Chris Sevedge

The reason you dont understand the desire to go to the TOC is because you never went to one of the qualifiers. The type of debate creates a desire for more, and sevv i will get the rules changed even if i cant go its about the future of kansas debate. your sarcasm doesnt help your case.

 

Try to construct an argument instead of just making fun of other people- Claim- Warrant- Impact- for example

We should remove the barrier preventing students debating for high schools in kansas from debating at the Tournament of Champions because it increases education and is good for the future of debate.(thats the claim)

The tournament of champions increases education because national circuit style debates require us to think faster, research more, and strategize better. As exemplified by danny, why would i cut a ptx da in april if i wasnt going. Furthermore it is better for Kansas debate because it opens up new oppurtunities for students looking to pursue not only debate in highschool but as well in college, The NDT is a national circuit style tournament and big schools want that type of debater.(those are warrants)

Education is the biggest impact because without it victories become hollow, good coaches quit(patrick kennedy), and it makes the game less enjoyable overall until eventually the activity as a whole implodes and the game you love so very much is destroyed due to ignorance.

The future of kansas debate is important because without it sevvdog wouldnt have a place to spend his nights magically escaping from his life, and furthermore it would restrict the ability of debaters like me to gain critical thinking skills which are pertinent in the real world. (thats the impact)

 

Finally, dude, im a gonna be a junior in highschool, making fun of me is not like the cool thing to do. I know im very optimistic that i can create change and thats because i dont care about anything more than debate and my goal is to go to the TOC, and chris, im gonna do it.

 

P.S.

your own debate team agrees with me, they all want change. as i said earlier just because you dont believe in national circuit debate doesnt mean that you should prevent those of us that want to from doing it and dude why not its a struggle that even if we dont achieve is worth fighting for.

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This is a little like saying that you're going to quit basketball in grade school because of some new NBA rule.

hmm. no, its like saying if im not going to be debating ellis allen and dtay why would i prepare like i was.

its like if you were in a competition against me in making bad analogies, you wouldnt have to prepare because you just won.

i dont mean to be a dick and i dont want to taint my ethos but i want to get the point across we need change.

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