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Persuade a hypothetical Christian to become Atheist

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so what "caused" God?

 

in b4 "HE EXISTED ALWAYS, DUHHHH"

(that's not an answer, btw.)

 

Within that statement is a misunderstanding of causality. Causality does not dictate that everything must have had a cause, rather, it dictates that everything that came to be must have had a cause. God, as an eternal being, had no beginning, and thus did not require a cause.

 

Nevertheless, there are facets of our existence that is evidence for God. Existence itself shows this, through the question, "If there is no God, why does anything exist at all?" Why indeed.

 

Honest physicians, and indeed some of the greatest physicists to have ever lived, such as Einstein, acknowledged the necessity for a divine being. This is the being that was the first cause, the force that was responsible for all of existence. Keep in mind that with the following qualities and characteristics, they are taken from scientific observation, and not from any religion. These are the scientifically-required qualities that the force must have.

 

The first quality is that the force must be self-existent. It is timeless, nonspatial, and immaterial. This is proven, in that the force is responsible for all of existence, of which time, space, and matter comprise. As the creator of existence, they must be outside of that existence. As that is so, they are without limits, and thus infinite.

 

The second quality is that of power. The force must be unimaginably powerful, for the incredible power required to summon all of existence out of nothing.

 

The third quality is their intellect. The force must be incomprehensibly intelligent, as after it summoned all of matter into existence, it then arranged it in a manner which perfectly accommodated existence.

 

The fourth and final quality is that it would be a personal force. Only a personal force could make the decision to take nothingness and then turn it into our existence. An impersonal force can not make choices.

 

To state again what was said previously, this is not the claims of any faith, this is what has been scientifically concluded about the force which caused existence. It is science which has shown that this being resembles the monotheistic deities.

Edited by Dr. McNinja

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re: pascal's wager

 

the common refutation is that it's actually better not to take a stance because if you don't choose the right one out of 230492304329403249132 possible deities, most of the other ones will punish you to eternal damnation for blasphemy.

 

--

 

here's an interesting argument i heard regarding proof in religious debates.

 

i. the amount of nonexistent entities is infinitely larger than the amount of existing entities

 

ii. therefore, when making guesses as to the existence of an entity, we should presume it does not exist if we have no proof

 

iii. lacking proof (as it is against the nature of faith), we should presume that god does not exist

 

--

 

re: proving god's existence

 

scientific "proofs" like the one offered in the post above are really no more than self-serving hypotheses that start with a conclusion and go about finding ways to justify that line of thought. there are never any warrants given as to why god is the only solution to any of these problems, just that it's a possible solution. which of course it's going to be, that's kind of the point.

 

the whole original causation argument relies on a conception of a causal chain that may or may not be entirely accurate. if there is an absolute causal chain, then everything's determined, and your faith doesn't matter anyway. but that's assuming there is a causal chain, and that time is finite, neither of which there is any decent proof of.

 

even if you buy those arguments, none of them justify faith in any organized religion, as synergy's already pointed out.

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Guest svfrey
in b4 "HE EXISTED ALWAYS, DUHHHH"

(that's not an answer, btw.)

 

Within that statement is a misunderstanding of causality. Causality does not dictate that everything must have had a cause, rather, it dictates that everything that came to be must have had a cause. God, as an eternal being, had no beginning, and thus did not require a cause.

 

Nevertheless, there are facets of our existence that is evidence for God. Existence itself shows this, through the question, "If there is no God, why does anything exist at all?" Why indeed.

 

Honest physicians, and indeed some of the greatest physicists to have ever lived, such as Einstein, acknowledged the necessity for a divine being. This is the being that was the first cause, the force that was responsible for all of existence. Keep in mind that with the following qualities and characteristics, they are taken from scientific observation, and not from any religion. These are the scientifically-required qualities that the force must have.

 

The first quality is that the force must be self-existent. It is timeless, nonspatial, and immaterial. This is proven, in that the force is responsible for all of existence, of which time, space, and matter comprise. As the creator of existence, they must be outside of that existence. As that is so, they are without limits, and thus infinite.

 

The second quality is that of power. The force must be unimaginably powerful, for the incredible power required to summon all of existence out of nothing.

 

The third quality is their intellect. The force must be incomprehensibly intelligent, as after it summoned all of matter into existence, it then arranged it in a manner which perfectly accommodated existence.

 

The fourth and final quality is that it would be a personal force. Only a personal force could make the decision to take nothingness and then turn it into our existence. An impersonal force can not make choices.

 

To state again what was said previously, this is not the claims of any faith, this is what has been scientifically concluded about the force which caused existence. It is science which has shown that this being resembles the monotheistic deities.

 

 

 

man, that's just so convenient, isn't it? gets you out of so many attacks on the existence of a god.

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Why don't you believe in:

-Thor

-Jupiter/Zeus

-Zoroastrianism

-Buddhism

-Hinduism

 

Those have deities?

Why specifically Christianity?

 

What's the difference between believing in the Tooth Fairy and a God?

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Fuck man, I can handle the tooth fairy. But if some big bearded fucker holding lightning bolts and riding on a cloud came into my house to snag something from under my pillow, I'd stab that fucker in the neck with a screwdriver.

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Why don't you believe in:

-Thor

-Jupiter/Zeus

-Zoroastrianism

-Buddhism

-Hinduism

 

Those have deities?

Why specifically Christianity?

 

What's the difference between believing in the Tooth Fairy and a God?

 

FSM is god.

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here's an interesting argument i heard regarding proof in religious debates.

 

i. the amount of nonexistent entities is infinitely larger than the amount of existing entities

 

ii. therefore, when making guesses as to the existence of an entity, we should presume it does not exist if we have no proof

 

iii. lacking proof (as it is against the nature of faith), we should presume that god does not exist

 

The first and second conclusions do indeed have some logic to them; however, the third point is a misinterpretation of faith. Faith-belief sans evidence-is going to, by its definition, be without proof. How that conclusion means a presumption of the nonexistence of God is illogical.

 

 

re: proving god's existence

 

scientific "proofs" like the one offered in the post above are really no more than self-serving hypotheses that start with a conclusion and go about finding ways to justify that line of thought. there are never any warrants given as to why god is the only solution to any of these problems, just that it's a possible solution. which of course it's going to be, that's kind of the point.

 

Honest physicians, and indeed some of the greatest physicists to have ever lived, such as Einstein, acknowledged the necessity for a divine being. This is the being that was the first cause, the force that was responsible for all of existence. Keep in mind that with the following qualities and characteristics, they are taken from scientific observation, and not from any religion. These are the scientifically-required qualities that the force must have.

the whole original causation argument relies on a conception of a causal chain that may or may not be entirely accurate. if there is an absolute causal chain, then everything's determined, and your faith doesn't matter anyway. but that's assuming there is a causal chain, and that time is finite, neither of which there is any decent proof of.

 

Yes, we do know that there is a causal chain spanning back to the big bang, which was proven by relativity. General Relativity demands an absolute beginning for all of time and space, and through our understanding of it, we have been able to predict the big bang, the resulting cosmic background radiation, and redshift, to name a few. The universe can not be infinite because today is the last day of history, which means it can not be an actual infinite.

 

 

even if you buy those arguments, none of them justify faith in any organized religion, as synergy's already pointed out.

 

If you buy those arguments you have Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, as those are the only three with a monotheistic deity described by science. I pick Christianity because of Biblical historicity.

 

 

man, that's just so convenient, isn't it? gets you out of so many attacks on the existence of a god.

 

The first characteristic predicts such a being, for as existing outside of reality, they must be infinite, ie, eternal.

Edited by Dr. McNinja

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I am going off of the basis that you are trying to persuade a christian to become atheist, a true christian who beleives the bible is the word of god

 

distinction between god/faith

god's existence is non-falsifiable - like invisible unicorn in my garage

pascals wager - god may exist - the prob w/ this is it doesn't give guidance to any action

it's human arrogance to presume to know god's will

-The Bible is gods will in paper form. He provides a perfect picture of what he wants in the bible to us.

how do you even know god is normative? assuming he is, he could have any of infinite wills

-Bible = Gods will painted perfectly for us, not all the sin that humans may commit in it, but the overarhcing idealism that he provokes throughout the bible shows us his wills

maybe god wants you to be atheist and worship through defiance

maybe god hates it when you pray on sundays

-Bible answers all of this when god says he wants us to worship him and no one else, he tells us he is like our father and he wants to treat us and love us like his children.

all of these things are equally likely to be god's will. that's why even under pascal's wager, god's possible existence can't guide your action towards a specific direction

subscribing to an established religion means having faith in that some guy many centuries ago figured out god's will.

-Or god revealed himself in the bible through each author that he presented.

 

there's no reason to believe this - it's just as likely that the exact opposite is true of god's true will

-Again thank you bible

quote]

 

1) Arbitrary assertions should be dismissed.

2) The assertion of god is arbitrary.

Therefore, the assertion of god should be dismissed.

-Can you explain to me why arbritrary assertions should be dissmissed? I know its stupid i just want to figure out what your argument here is.

 

Also, the Socratic Method sometimes works well.

- What do you mean

 

by pointing out all inconsistencies and changes made to the christian/catholic religion

-Christian =/= Catholocism, What changes have been made to christianity after martin luther

 

first of papacy is a bunch of bull that was not dictated by god at all but man made

-Catholicism =/= Christianity Catholics messed it up that is why martin luther had to happen

 

the bible is a few selections from the many books.... religious leaders decided what went in and what didn't

-God inspired all of those who decided this, they based this off of what books they had had success in conveying the picture of mercy and love that was god to other people

 

the numerous changes made to what is a sin/isn't

-What exact changes are you talking about

 

priests sold penances to exploit religion

-Catholocism did that, thank you martin luther

 

many poor translation of the bible in other countries due to it being originally in latin, (martin luther)

- There has been no poor interpretation except for the fact that it wasnt in their own language, the interpretations from latin to other languages still presents the overarching idea

 

system of church and priesthood doesn't belong in religion/not dictated in the bible

-Catholocism does this not

 

the worship of saints and not the direct worship of god

-Catholocism advocates this nto christianity

 

the idea that some believe jesus was a manifestation of god.... at best he was a profit, a man, bringing to the world god's word

-Except all those places where he said that he was god, and god said, "This is my son with whom i am well pleased." or all those people who said this is gods son. And if we beleive the bible to be gods word god says several time that he is gods son, and jesus claims to be god.

 

praying with rosaries for certain prayers has no purpose

-Catholicism =/= Christianity

 

the worship of idols (crucifixes) diverts attention from god

-Worship of them does move attention from god but the useage of them as a reminder for waht god did for us.

 

sacraments were never mentioned in the bible and were created by the church system

-Except for the whole communion deal that christ institutes at the last supper

 

in Catholicism, catholic tradition is held higher then the bible

-Christianity =/= Catholicism

 

confessions of sins to priests is preposterous, a priest is a man of god, not god himself, god can only absolve sin.... you cannot say a few hail mary's and expect for your sins to magically be absolved... for every sin commited man must pay it's price

-Catholicism =/= Christianity

 

the church system deliberately massacred hundreds of people who opposed religion (illuminati)

-SInful human beings cause all of this, not gods will or gods instruction it is people trying to do what pleases them and trying to justify it to themselves

 

the dissection of true Christianity (belief in jesus's teachings) into many different religions all of which came up with their own way of practicing the teachings, and looking at only certain sections of the religion

- The overarching idea of christianity is not changed. Forgiveness is the only way into hevaen not hing else. But other small things that dont decide that if you go to geaven have different interpretaitons. Baptism, communion etc

 

king james bible

-Yes?

 

annulment of religion is NOWHERE in the bible

-What are you tring to say

 

celibacy of church leaders is never mentioned in the bible

- And is only practiced in catholicism

 

even though all sects of christianity believe in jesus christ's teaching they have mass animosity towards each other

-What sects have annimosity?

 

 

followers of the religion memorize prayers for saints, and mary, and not for god

-Catholicism =/= Christianity

Exodus 20:4-6

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;

And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

 

 

 

 

salvation is by god only

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast (Ephesians 2:8,9).

 

 

Catholics are taught that the Pope is infallible (incapable of being wrong) and yet, rules are often changed/updated by new Popes.

-Catholicism =/= Christianity

 

 

the bible is a collection of 66 books with very different styles all containing the message God desired us to have. if god sent down these books to us, and they contain the messages of god then we must accept it all and not what is being spoon fed to us by the church system

-What is the church spoon feeding us exactly?

 

The Bible nowhere instructs believers in Christ to pray to anyone other than God. The Bible nowhere encourages, or even mentions, believers asking individuals in Heaven for their prayers. thus sainthood is completely against the bible, and illogical.

-Christianity =/= Catholicism

 

the bible has been changed many times... the old testament....the new testament... it should never be changed, because it is supposedly a direct message from god to humans, we as humans cannot change god's word......

- What exactly has been changed? If you look to the oldest transcrpits that we have of hte bible, which is thousnads of years old the bible has changed so little that no meaning has even been lost.

 

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Guest svfrey

DEAR JESUS USE THE QUOTE FUNCTION

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

kthnx

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Guest svfrey
The first characteristic predicts such a being, for as existing outside of reality, they must be infinite, ie, eternal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

*cough* circular logic *cough*

Edited by svfrey

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The first and second conclusions are indeed logical, however, the third point is essentially saying that the notion of faith-belief sans evidence-means that we should

 

 

go back and read my post. you're ignoring the argument (which i will freely admit is not mine.

 

i'm not getting into a religious debate on the internet, because it's pointless. i will however point out that you're misunderstanding the argument i've cited.

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So, just out of curiosity: How would you, as a debater, go about persuading a hypothetical Christian to become atheist?

 

(alternative challenge: How would you persuade a hypothetical atheist to become Christian?)

I would use hypothetical lions.

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go back and read my post. you're ignoring the argument (which i will freely admit is not mine.

 

i'm not getting into a religious debate on the internet, because it's pointless. i will however point out that you're misunderstanding the argument i've cited.

 

That was a mistake of mine; in my rush to finish the post due to the constraints of time, I did not notice that I had failed to complete that thought, it is now done in the original post.

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so what "caused" God?

 

Maybe it's something to do with the God particle.

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by pointing out all inconsistencies and changes made to the christian/catholic religion

 

first of papacy is a bunch of bull that was not dictated by god at all but man made

ummm no... this would be true except for the bible verse where Jesus tells peter you are my rock on which i will build my church and you shall have the keys to the gates of heaven which will stand strong against all the powers of hell. Jesus pretty much names Peter the pope/ head of the church in the bible.

 

the bible is a few selections from the many books.... religious leaders decided what went in and what didn't

The Gnostic gospels (the books not in the bible) all pretty much agree with the gospels that are included in the bible. meaning that its not like the church leaders kept out a book of the bible that contradicts the other books. in fact the gnostic gospels add a great deal to God's message.

 

the numerous changes made to what is a sin/isn't

Sin comes directly from the ten commandments, which have been the same for over 2700 years. but times change, so the interpretation of the ten commandments must also change. so yes as new "evils" come into being the ten commandments will have to be interpreted again in regards to the new developments of the times.

 

priests sold penances to exploit religion

Not a reason to reject God's existence in favor of atheism because the Catholic church is a human institution made up of humans. Guess what humans make mistakes... (i know shocking)! the church also makes mistakes and like humans they are able to correct those mistakes.

 

many poor translation of the bible in other countries due to it being originally in latin, (martin luther)

Not a reason to embrace atheism... and the bible was actually first written in greek and translated from greek (a much more known language than latin).

 

system of church and priesthood doesn't belong in religion/not dictated in the bible

In the bible Jesus talks about the 12 apostles as being chosen to carry on the faith and take it to the world. He then talks about they must baptize those in all the world. This is the creation of the priesthood. Also see my response to the question about the papacy.

 

the worship of saints and not the direct worship of god

I don'y know where you learned that Catholics worship saints because We don't. Saints are actually EVERY single person that lived a Christian life not just those recognized by the vatican. In addition saints shows those of us on earth how to live our lives and how to worship God better. they are examples of the stellar life.

 

 

the idea that some believe jesus was a manifestation of god.... at best he was a profit, a man, bringing to the world god's word

How many prophets (or for you .... profit) rose from the dead? the fact that Jesus rose from the dead shows to His followers and the world that Jesus is the christ, the Son of man, Jesus is God!

 

praying with rosaries for certain prayers has no purpose

The Purpose of praying with a rosary is one to recieve aid from Mary since it was instituted by her to two children in Fatima. and if you don't buy that... the rosary is a simple tool to aid in prayer and asking for the intercesion of Mary, in addition to asking for mercy and praising/ praying to God.

 

the worship of idols (crucifixes) diverts attention from god

Again your knowledge of many Christian practicies is lacking. The use of crucifixes is not even close to a position of worship. The crucifix is simply a reminder of the sacrifice of Jesus and to show the love that God has for us all by sending His son to die on a cross for our sins.

 

sacraments were never mentioned in the bible and were created by the church system

That is actually 100% wrong. all seven sacraments were instituted by Christ in the bible.

 

in Catholicism, catholic tradition is held higher then the bible

All Catholic tradition is based completely on biblical teachings.

 

confessions of sins to priests is preposterous, a priest is a man of god, not god himself, god can only absolve sin.... you cannot say a few hail mary's and expect for your sins to magically be absolved... for every sin commited man must pay it's price

In regards to the first half, A priest isn't God but he acts on God's behalf in what's call "incristo" or representing Christ when people are in the confessional. meaning that when the priest absolves you in the confessional christ too absolves you. see phil 4:13; 1 cor 1:31; 2 cor 10:17; gal 6:14; and Lk 3:8.

 

the church system deliberately massacred hundreds of people who opposed religion (illuminati)

see my comments about how the church makes mistakes and is not perfect.

 

the dissection of true Christianity (belief in jesus's teachings) into many different religions all of which came up with their own way of practicing the teachings, and looking at only certain sections of the religion

Not a reason to reject the existence of God, and only shows the fickleness of humanity and how we all can be decived by false teachers.

 

king james bible

what about it? Besides it being one of the most restrictive (in regards to what books are allowed in there) bibles out there. The New american Bible or the Jerusalem bible are much better. they have more books than the KJB

 

annulment of religion is NOWHERE in the bible

What? i don't understand the point you are making here...

 

celibacy of church leaders is never mentioned in the bible

Priests are celebate in Catholic church "for the sake of the kingdom of heaven" (Mt 19:12). They are called to consecrate themselves with undivided heart to God. They give themselves entirely to God through this Celebacy. It is a sign of this new life of service. It may not be clearly established in the bible but the practice of celebacy further enhances the leaders' dedication to the service of God.

 

even though all sects of christianity believe in jesus christ's teaching they have mass animosity towards each other

Another example of the fallen state of man and not a reason to reject God. Catholics have always been willing to reconcile with the splinter groups that have broken away from the Church.

 

followers of the religion memorize prayers for saints, and mary, and not for god

See where i talked about the worship of saints. the prayers to saints are mere crys of help and a plea for intercesion in front of God.

 

Exodus 20:4-6

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Not really sure what point you are making here but i think it has to do with the aformentioned "worship of idols" see my response to this above.

 

salvation is by god only

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast (Ephesians 2:8,9).

No idea what you are trying to say here. care to elaborate?

 

Catholics are taught that the Pope is infallible (incapable of being wrong) and yet, rules are often changed/updated by new Popes.

This is one of the biggest misconceptions about Catholicism... THe pope is ONLY inflallible when he declares that he is speaking from the Throne of St. Peter, this only happens when the Pope recives a divine revelation by God. This has only happened twice in Church history. once declaring that mary was sinless and always a virgin. the second being that Mary was assumed into heaven body and soul.

 

the bible is a collection of 66 books with very different styles all containing the message God desired us to have. if god sent down these books to us, and they contain the messages of god then we must accept it all and not what is being spoon fed to us by the church system

Everything "spoon fed" to us by the church is found in the bible or with strong biblical basis.

 

The Bible nowhere instructs believers in Christ to pray to anyone other than God. The Bible nowhere encourages, or even mentions, believers asking individuals in Heaven for their prayers. thus sainthood is completely against the bible, and illogical.

Should we not ask people for prayers on earth? What is wrong with asking for help from the people who seemed to get it right?

 

it is sin to get drunk, but not to drink in moderation, if alcohol is such a bad substance then it should not be drunk at all....

When we turn to the example of Jesus, we find him accused of being a "winebibber" (Matt 11:19). The charge was, of course, false. He did drink wine but he never overindulged! He said that he came "eating and drinking" - not just water, obviously (v.33), but wine, in contrast to John the Baptist who was an abstainer (Luke 7:34). We also find him at a wedding reception turning water into gallons of top-quality oinos (John 2:10). And Jesus refers to wine in his parables.

Whatever alcohol's potentially harmful effects, then, it clearly is not prohibited (except in specific instances) in the Bible, Old Testament or New. It is one of God's blessings to mankind. "Temper- ance" - which is by many used in the sense of total abstention from alcoholic drink - is therefore a human tradition and stems from a misinformed conscience, however sincere.

This argument makes very little sense. however, The bible teaches that all things should be done in moderation. Food is not a bad substance but the bible teaches that gluttony is wrong.

 

the bible has been changed many times... the old testament....the new testament... it should never be changed, because it is supposedly a direct message from god to humans, we as humans cannot change god's word......

So the new revelations and the new messages of God should never be included with the other earlier teachings of God? Anyway, The message of the bible has always been the same. Love thy God and Love thy neighboor.

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the bible was actually first written in greek and translated from greek (a much more known language than latin).
Not quite. What Christians call the Old Testament and Jews call The Tanakh was written mostly in Hebrew, with a bit of Aramaic here and there...
The Purpose of praying with a rosary is one to recieve aid from Mary since it was instituted by her to two children in Fatima. and if you don't buy that...
I don't. Coupla things:
  • The events to which you refer took place in 1917. The use of prayer beads for devotional praying had already been around for at least 1200 years by then. Our Lady of Fatima simply asked that the Fatima prayer be added to the traditional rosary devotions.
  • Although the "Hail Mary" is the most-repeated prayer in the devotion, it also includes repetitions of the Lord's Prayer and the "Glory Be..." in each decade. The Mysteries of the Rosary (Joyful, Sorrowful, Glorious, Luminous) recount events from the lives of both Jesus and Mary. It simply isn't true that we only pray to Mary during a rosary devotion.
  • Intercessory prayer is but one of many kinds of devotions in which the rosary figures prominently.

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Not quite. What Christians call the Old Testament and Jews call The Tanakh was written mostly in Hebrew, with a bit of Aramaic here and there...

Yes the old testament was written in hebrew. however, the new testament was written and compiled in greek before it was translated. ANd the fact that the old testament was written in hebrew supports my original point because hebrew is widely known just like greek. And The bible i was refering to was only the christian part, the new testament which was originally written in aramaic and translated to greek.

 

I don't. Coupla things:

  • The events to which you refer took place in 1917. The use of prayer beads for devotional praying had already been around for at least 1200 years by then. Our Lady of Fatima simply asked that the Fatima prayer be added to the traditional rosary devotions.
  • Although the "Hail Mary" is the most-repeated prayer in the devotion, it also includes repetitions of the Lord's Prayer and the "Glory Be..." in each decade. The Mysteries of the Rosary (Joyful, Sorrowful, Glorious, Luminous) recount events from the lives of both Jesus and Mary. It simply isn't true that we only pray to Mary during a rosary devotion.
  • Intercessory prayer is but one of many kinds of devotions in which the rosary figures prominently.

You are right about the time frame of the fatima event, however Mary adds a new meaning to the praying of the rosary. Mary first of all adds the power of indulgence to saying a rosary and she instructs the children of fatima and the world to pray for world peace and for the conversion of soviet russia.

In regards to the second part of your post, look to the second part of my comments about the rosary from my original post. the rosary combines the most prominent prayers of the catholic faith. The rosary is far more than just a prayer to Mary.

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I would give the Old Testament a once over. . .turns out the Messiah is a big subject of conversation making both parts the Christian part if you believe Jesus is the Messiah.

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I would give the Old Testament a once over. . .turns out the Messiah is a big subject of conversation making both parts the Christian part if you believe Jesus is the Messiah.

The old testament yes is full of prophets that talk about the coming of the messiah... then yes Jesus does come in the way that the prophets speak of. however, the new testament is specific to how the messiah (Jesus) has come, where as the old testament is specific to the coming of a messiah. the two are vastly different.

Edit:

reputation_neg.gifPersuade a hypothetical... May 23rd, 2009 11:52 PMCatholics consider both Old and New Testaments "Christian"

Actually no, Catholics don't. the only Christian faith that might consider both testaments to be Christian are the calvinists. John Calvin is the only religious leader to ever make the assertion that since both testaments talk about a messiah that they must be the same. Catholics, see the old testament as hebrew scripture and see it as the story of the ancestors of our faith.

Edited by Jareth
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Yes the old testament was written in hebrew. however, the new testament was written and compiled in greek before it was translated. ANd the fact that the old testament was written in hebrew supports my original point because hebrew is widely known just like greek. And The bible i was refering to was only the christian part, the new testament which was originally written in aramaic and translated to greek.

 

Still wrong. Aramaic was the predominately spoken language among first century Jews in Palestine. You will notice if you read original texts(or greek translations at least) that many accounts of people talking are translitterated Aramaic, but the rest of the text is in greek. They spoke aramaic, but the written laguage was Greek since Alexandrian Times in the area.

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Still wrong. Aramaic was the predominately spoken language among first century Jews in Palestine. You will notice if you read original texts(or greek translations at least) that many accounts of people talking are translitterated Aramaic, but the rest of the text is in greek. They spoke aramaic, but the written laguage was Greek since Alexandrian Times in the area.

 

In after pastors kid owns thread

 

amidoinitrite?

 

Also, to Sean Frey:

 

Your argument makes no sense, if you are to say the Big Bang took place (as opposed to creation) then you would have to state that matter is eternal. Why is matter allowed to be eternal but not God?

kthxbai

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