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Idaho State Tourney

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okay, state is over so here are results

 

Hunter and Joey took first in B

 

goddamn Cutler/Walsh (at least I think that's who it was, it's like Hillcrests D-team) took first in A, beating out Wang/Charles

 

I'll make a rant/congratulations post tomorrow, I'm too tired tonight.

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Blackfoot is fucking lagit, im glad you guys won. you my boys!

 

I think it is rediculous that Hillcrest beats out karen wang, shes amazing on every flow. i didnt watch the round but know for a fact that those hillcrest kids were not that good.

 

Idaho really needs to fix the problems that exist in tournements like these, good teams keep getting fucked, and it really pisses me off that rouds can be evaluated this way. I have lots of problems with this tournement that ill post tomarrow, i just want to go to bed right now.

 

oh, and that hillcrest team was actually Jones/Hall.

Edited by BrandonWeedon

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Congrats to Joey and Hunter, and Karen and Kaitlin.

 

 

 

 

 

I'll probably be adding to those rants soon.

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was it just me or did it seem like alot of the judges were pretty terrible? we had one guy talking to himself the entire round, and this old lady who just sat there and glared at all of us the whole time. and then finals was all comm judges haha. joey and hunter werent very happy lol.

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As strange as the turnout of A division was, and as much as we want to rant about judging, we have to give credit where credit is due to Hillcrest. This seems to be a less-severe version of the National Service finals where Hillcrest beat Capital, but nonetheless, the Hillcrest kids deserve some respect. After all, most people I've heard said Kaitlin and Karen did a lackluster job in finals. Those two are a killer team anyway, losing to Hillcrest shouldn't change that.

 

Congrats to all, and thanks for a fantastic tournament.

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Blackfoot is fucking lagit, im glad you guys won. you my boys!

 

I think it is rediculous that Hillcrest beats out karen wang, shes amazing on every flow. i didnt watch the round but know for a fact that those hillcrest kids were not that good.

 

Idaho really needs to fix the problems that exist in tournements like these, good teams keep getting fucked, and it really pisses me off that rouds can be evaluated this way. I have lots of problems with this tournement that ill post tomarrow, i just want to go to bed right now.

 

oh, and that hillcrest team was actually Jones/Hall.

 

sorry, it was Jones/Hall

 

I did watch the round. In the block, hillcrest used a giant case dump in the 2NC and then DA's in the 1NR. But Karen came back and gave one of the greatest 1AR's I've ever heard only dropping like maybe one DA, all while still being amazingly comms judge oriented. It was epic.

 

Kaitlin was a disappointment though. She dropped a DA out of the 2AC and in general just didn't give good speeches. I don't know if she was having laptop problems or what, but she just kept getting tripped up over little things. It's not like she's a bad speaker though, I flowed a prelim round earlier of them earlier against the Highland A-team Osberg/Morrison, and she debated well then. For whatever reason, I think that was one of the contributing factors to what cost them the round.

 

to talk about the problems, what happened was all the legit judges left when their schools from the other side of the state were eliminated, and the only ones left were comms. something has to be done that keeps some of the tab and policymaker judges at the tournament in outrounds.

 

by the way, congrats on making it to quarters Weeden. Also your novice team with McAllister raped highland's b-team with a K, that was funny to watch.

Edited by highlandmike

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As strange as the turnout of A division was, and as much as we want to rant about judging, we have to give credit where credit is due to Hillcrest. This seems to be a less-severe version of the National Service finals where Hillcrest beat Capital, but nonetheless, the Hillcrest kids deserve some respect. After all, most people I've heard said Kaitlin and Karen did a lackluster job in finals. Those two are a killer team anyway, losing to Hillcrest shouldn't change that.

 

Congrats to all, and thanks for a fantastic tournament.

 

first off, congrats state champion! From talking to Max and looking at his "flow", you guy's had an epic round.

 

to talk about Hillcrest, what makes me mad about them winning A division is that what they probably picked the judges up on was the giant sandbagging in the block. Jesus Christ, new Solvency, Inherency, and Advantage Answers in the 2NC. Most of it was defense, but the two no flow judges didn't know that.

 

A win like this just validates this strategy of trying to sandbag the 1AR, which I think really does ruin the quality of debate. That round was everything I hate about Hillcrest, everything I hate about the Southeast Idaho judging pool, and really just didn't have the better debaters as the winner.

 

of course you're a state champion, so your opinion outranks mine...

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to talk about Hillcrest, what makes me mad about them winning A division is that what they probably picked the judges up on was the giant sandbagging in the block. Jesus Christ, new Solvency, Inherency, and Advantage Answers in the 2NC. Most of it was defense, but the two no flow judges didn't know that.

 

A win like this just validates this strategy of trying to sandbag the 1AR, which I think really does ruin the quality of debate. That round was everything I hate about Hillcrest, everything I hate about the Southeast Idaho judging pool, and really just didn't have the better debaters as the winner.

 

 

The "sandbagging" of the 1AR that you speak of is the absolute worst form of debate, and it destroys any education that could be gained from the round. Many teams in SE Idaho (not only Hillcrest) think the 1N's jurisdiction is off-case positions, while the 2N has the responsibility of case.

 

However, this forces large amounts of evidence to be read in the 1AR, as well as in the 2NR, making for a horribly uneducational debate that never really condenses down to anything.

 

We have to get used to these issues, as in Idaho, they will never go away...at least not while we're around. Some people will just never accept the fact that the "splitting the block" that SE Idaho teams perform is one of the most horrendous practices in policy.

 

Still, congrats to Kaitlin and Karen for a terrific run.

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The "sandbagging" of the 1AR that you speak of is the absolute worst form of debate, and it destroys any education that could be gained from the round. Many teams in SE Idaho (not only Hillcrest) think the 1N's jurisdiction is off-case positions, while the 2N has the responsibility of case.

 

However, this forces large amounts of evidence to be read in the 1AR, as well as in the 2NR, making for a horribly uneducational debate that never really condenses down to anything.

 

We have to get used to these issues, as in Idaho, they will never go away...at least not while we're around. Some people will just never accept the fact that the "splitting the block" that SE Idaho teams perform is one of the most horrendous practices in policy.

 

Still, congrats to Kaitlin and Karen for a terrific run.

 

words of wisdom that I will take to heart.

 

btw, if anyone wants to rant Max made a separate thread for it. for organizations sake.

 

here's the link. http://www.cross-x.com/vb/showthread.php?t=990610

Edited by highlandmike

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As strange as the turnout of A division was, and as much as we want to rant about judging, we have to give credit where credit is due to Hillcrest. This seems to be a less-severe version of the National Service finals where Hillcrest beat Capital, but nonetheless, the Hillcrest kids deserve some respect. After all, most people I've heard said Kaitlin and Karen did a lackluster job in finals. Those two are a killer team anyway, losing to Hillcrest shouldn't change that.

 

Congrats to all, and thanks for a fantastic tournament.

Hunter, you know I love you but im going to have to disagree with you on this. They were a bullshit team who didn't deserve to be there in the first place. They went undefeated for gods sake meaning they had all Communications judges. Does that not seem a little strange to you? Brandon beat them in quarterfinals but had a judge who walked around looking at posters because he didn't like space colonization. And also the other communications judge put a shitty new analytical argument that was in the 2nr as her rfd when everyone in that round knows it was just because she hated them. Although he could have adapted better, they should have dropped in sems to a team that did adapt. Ashley and amanda are fucking legit. They should have won. And then everyone knows that Wang wouldve won that finals round. Everyone tells the legit debaters to adapt but i would love to see how hillcrest does against Wang or Amanda or even either of the centennial teams (me included- f u bonneville haha) with a tabs judge or even a policymakers judge. I just wish I hit them on the neg so that I could show them what really spreading out in the block would be. Point being hunter, they didn't deserve to break, least of all to make it to finals. I heard all tournament about them lying, sandbagging and just being overall douche bags.

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of course you're a state champion, so your opinion outranks mine...

 

Haha no Mike, his opinion outranks yours because he is fucking legit and you were an alt for a school that doesn't have districts :P hahha.

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Can anyone post what was ran in B-division finals? And, A-division if possible.

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Can anyone post what was ran in B-division finals? And, A-division if possible.

 

B division went something like this:

 

Philips/Harper AFF-Nuclear(i'm sure we are all familiar with it haha)

 

Wilmore/Straus NEG-

1)Free market solves better than incentives DA

2)Ban incentives CP

3)....shoot i cant remember what the other thing was.

 

but it was an amazing round!!! Me being a novice, i learned so much watching joey and hunter in both semi's and finals. i want to congratulate them on winning state, Thank them for teaching me (intentionally or not,) and also apologize to them because i think i was kind of an ass in our round. You guys are amazing, i look forward to seeing you guys, well i guess its just hunter, but i look forward to seeing you in action next year!

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B division went something like this:

 

Philips/Harper AFF-Nuclear(i'm sure we are all familiar with it haha)

 

Wilmore/Straus NEG-

1)Free market solves better than incentives DA

2)Ban incentives CP

3)....shoot i cant remember what the other thing was.

 

The neg strat in Finals was:

 

A. T (nuclear not AE)

B. Innovation Net Benefit (aff destroys tech advances through fed regulations)

C. Ban Incentives CP

D. Fiscal Discipline DA

E. Case

 

Finals was a split ballot, for a card Joey read in the 1AR killing CP solvency wasn't evaluated by one judge because he wouldn't listen to Joey going a little faster than he would in front of a first-time judge.

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Hunter, you know I love you but im going to have to disagree with you on this. They were a bullshit team who didn't deserve to be there in the first place. They went undefeated for gods sake meaning they had all Communications judges. Does that not seem a little strange to you? Brandon beat them in quarterfinals but had a judge who walked around looking at posters because he didn't like space colonization. And also the other communications judge put a shitty new analytical argument that was in the 2nr as her rfd when everyone in that round knows it was just because she hated them. Although he could have adapted better, they should have dropped in sems to a team that did adapt. Ashley and amanda are fucking legit. They should have won. And then everyone knows that Wang wouldve won that finals round. Everyone tells the legit debaters to adapt but i would love to see how hillcrest does against Wang or Amanda or even either of the centennial teams (me included- f u bonneville haha) with a tabs judge or even a policymakers judge. I just wish I hit them on the neg so that I could show them what really spreading out in the block would be. Point being hunter, they didn't deserve to break, least of all to make it to finals. I heard all tournament about them lying, sandbagging and just being overall douche bags.

 

I have to agree with you that Ashley and Amanda as well as Karen and Kaitlin, not to mention Chaz, Brandon, and most others in outrounds, were better debaters than the team that one. As much as we want to call bull, comms judges were what the panel was, and they eat up the sandbagging of the 1AR. We can't change what happened, but we do know that in any other panel situation, the decision would have been different.

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sorry, it was Jones/Hall

 

. Also your novice team with McAllister raped highland's b-team with a K, that was funny to watch.

 

 

we fucking dropped that round somehow btw.

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we fucking dropped that round somehow btw.

 

dude, that fucking sucks I'm sorry.

 

I'm going to assume the comms judge just ignored the K?

Edited by highlandmike

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Can anyone post what was ran in B-division finals? And, A-division if possible.

 

A-division broke down something like this:

Wang/Charles are aff, run their RPS case with econ, soft power heg, and one other advantage I can't remember.

 

Jones/Hall are neg, in the 1NC run some time suck T and three DA's, Electricity Prices, Clean Coal, and something else... then in 2NC go case dump.

 

if someone can improve on this, please do. I got so pissed off after the case dump that I stopped flowing.

Edited by highlandmike

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Blackfoot is fucking lagit, im glad you guys won. you my boys!

 

I think it is rediculous that Hillcrest beats out karen wang, shes amazing on every flow. i didnt watch the round but know for a fact that those hillcrest kids were not that good.

 

Idaho really needs to fix the problems that exist in tournements like these, good teams keep getting fucked, and it really pisses me off that rouds can be evaluated this way. I have lots of problems with this tournement that ill post tomarrow, i just want to go to bed right now.

 

oh, and that hillcrest team was actually Jones/Hall.

 

In and of itself, that finals round sucked terribly. Wang's partner had a terrible terrible 2AC, and they really screwed up that round, it was near impossible to flow, no one kept it together in that round except Wang, and she had to answer 8 minutes case dump and the 3 D/A's and T in the 1AR, she get's my MVP award for A Debaters at this tourny...

 

As a side comment, lack of power-matching did screw a lot of good teams out of breaking, that is a SIMPLE fix that idaho tournaments dont seem to understand

 

And of course judging pannel was horrid, and not just in terms of most of the outround judges were coms, but some of them didnt even remotely care! As mentioned earlier, who i dubbed "Mr. Wander Judge" was judging outrounds, where all he does it stand up during your speeches and look at posters, ignoring everything you say. There are other examples of extreme issues with judging after that.

 

Us who are trapped here in SE idaho need to find ways to fix the way debate is over here. Anyone have any ideas on how to evolve SE idaho debate beyond having the same evolution as Public Forum?

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we fucking dropped that round somehow btw.

 

I apologize a million times over if you guys didnt pick up that round, you completely killed us. It's just that coming from this side of the state, we've debated the K once, ever. So, we both sincerely apologize for that round.

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One last thing needs to be said about those Bonneville kids we've been ripping on all week...

 

I debated them, and they weren't half bad. Sure, their strat's a little unexciting, and the kids probably shouldn't have been so full of themselves on the internet, but they're pretty good kids. They have a lot of potential, but that still doesn't change the fact that they reveled in douchebaggery up until yesterday.

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In and of itself, that finals round sucked terribly. Wang's partner had a terrible terrible 2AC, and they really screwed up that round, it was near impossible to flow, no one kept it together in that round except Wang, and she had to answer 8 minutes case dump and the 3 D/A's and T in the 1AR, she get's my MVP award for A Debaters at this tourny...

 

As a side comment, lack of power-matching did screw a lot of good teams out of breaking, that is a SIMPLE fix that idaho tournaments dont seem to understand

 

And of course judging pannel was horrid, and not just in terms of most of the outround judges were coms, but some of them didnt even remotely care! As mentioned earlier, who i dubbed "Mr. Wander Judge" was judging outrounds, where all he does it stand up during your speeches and look at posters, ignoring everything you say. There are other examples of extreme issues with judging after that.

 

Us who are trapped here in SE idaho need to find ways to fix the way debate is over here. Anyone have any ideas on how to evolve SE idaho debate beyond having the same evolution as Public Forum?

 

Ya, that fuck judged my quarters round against Hillcrest. he had his ballot fipped over and signed before the 2AC. he never picked it up again. and he just got up during everyones speeches and started fucking wandering around the room. he did not write a single thing down the entire debate. this is his first year in the activity and he was judges A outrounds. thats bullshit.

 

1. debate is the only activity that you dont need to pass a class or a test in order to officiate. i really think that needs to change. at the beginning of the season, all judges should have to get certified and take a class tought by coaches to make sure that they all have a general understanding of policy debate.

 

2. A judges need to judge A outrounds at least. its bullshit that i need to deal with at least two incompetent judges in a quarters round because someone decided to bring there mom. (when you can win a debate round without a single impact at all, then it gets to be goddamn rediculous)

 

3. Policy debate is not evil. everyone in the tab room this weekend was hellbent on believing that policy debate was gong to be the end of the world. that mindset only leads to bad debates.

 

4. I saw someone talking about how all the good judges left when there teams were out. they wouldnt give our judge a quarters or a semis ballot even when they had them sitting on the table. they waited an extra ten min to post the round in order to find a judge that they liked (which happend to be mr. wander judge)

 

5. they have to many judges with the sme paradigm judging outrounds. every panel should consist of 3 judges with 3 different paradigms. anything different creates a bisased panel encouraging bad debates.

 

dont confuse my complaints with complaints against the IDC or comms judges. they are not the problem, although it seems now a days that a comms paradigm just means your a dumbass or just plain unqualified. alot of comms judges need to change there paradigm to lay.

 

and, congrats to hillcrest i guess. there state champions for winning a fixed tournement. thats like being the smartest kid with down syndrome.

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One last thing needs to be said about those Bonneville kids we've been ripping on all week...

 

I debated them, and they weren't half bad. Sure, their strat's a little unexciting, and the kids probably shouldn't have been so full of themselves on the internet, but they're pretty good kids. They have a lot of potential, but that still doesn't change the fact that they reveled in douchebaggery up until yesterday.

 

I'd also like to say, i said a few things about their debating skills, but i found out this weekend it was mistaken as to which bonneville team i was talking about. So, i really know nothing about their team that's alts to nats, but one of your teams...is pretty terrible...

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I'd also like to say, i said a few things about their debating skills, but i found out this weekend it was mistaken as to which bonneville team i was talking about. So, i really know nothing about their team that's alts to nats, but one of your teams...is pretty terrible...

 

which ones are you refering to? Garner/downs (a guy and a girl with long brown hair) or Rivas/Beery (a girl with redish hair and a mexican) or two girls who are both freshman and ya....haha. we have some not so good teams. Garner/downs have been stepping it up the last few tournaments and are prolly a little better than us i think.

Edited by BHS_debater

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One last thing needs to be said about those Bonneville kids we've been ripping on all week...

 

I debated them, and they weren't half bad. Sure, their strat's a little unexciting, and the kids probably shouldn't have been so full of themselves on the internet, but they're pretty good kids. They have a lot of potential, but that still doesn't change the fact that they reveled in douchebaggery up until yesterday.

 

ya i know i was. i went and read what i put and realized it was kinda dickish. but that not really me. i predicted we would get killed and did haha. but hearing that come from the state champion doesnt make me feel so bad about epic failing anymore. haha i want you to know i ran all that off case just for you hunter =) i'm usually the 2n but i wanted to run some off case so i made parker be the 2 haha. we never really had a set neg strat all year, but just kinda went with the flow, but you can bet next year will be different haha.

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