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Usually when i run cap if people say socialism bad i just say that lik my alt doesnt lead to that and it just creates a new system but we shouldnt focus on alternatives to cap and a bunch of junk like that. it has come to my attention however that saying that wont fly with really good teams - any suggestions on what to do

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do what Iago (aka Tom Ferguson) has been doing in his Virtual Debate rounds.. put your alt as reject action of the 1ac, and embrace the status quo (basically advocating masochism).. here's a link to the debate... i asked him questions about the alt.

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do what Iago (aka Tom Ferguson) has been doing in his Virtual Debate rounds.. put your alt as reject action of the 1ac, and embrace the status quo (basically advocating masochism).. here's a link to the debate... i asked him questions about the alt.

 

Along with this, there's bound to be some really good cards to back that up with in the free camp files on here.

 

Good luck.

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Or you could just bite the bullet and defend socialism. I know that that isn't in "vogue" right now in the debate community or in the academy in general but it's just like any argument in debate: there's lit on both sides.

 

Once you get beyond the idea that (1) any socialism has to look like Stalin's random bureaucracy that he called socialism and (2) socialism cannot be a democratic system, then you will be able to answer probably about 70 % of the lit that aff teams are going to cut as to why socialism is bad. The lit on why socialism is good is more diverse, giving you an innate stategic advantage here.

 

Also, even when you're against good squads, most teams soc. bad arguments and only one shell deep, which means that they won't be prepped for much other than a simple extension (in highschool you're not going to hit many aff teams that have answers to your answers to socialism good)

 

Additionally, you'll get the 1ar off their preferred and most practiced speech. Most 1ars are used to going for no alt and rejection is vague and all that business, which means that, when you just bite the bullet and throw down on socialism good, you're gunna take them to a place that they're less prepared to go.

 

Then you just need some cards about why saying no to the lure of reform is key to the revolutionary break (most negs will be lazy and go the Zizek rout, but I personally think that there's a lot better ev out there that you could be cutting).

 

I think that the general community belief is that rejection alts are basically stupid, so really defending some sort of alternative economic system can only buy you a net perception gain over reading a Johnson card and calling it good (plus you will get mad ethos if you surprise the judge and defend your alt with more specificity than they were prepared for).

 

Is there any disadvantage to this that I'm over-looking?

 

Anyways, there's my two cents.

Edited by Michael Leap

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oh. I forgot the following benefit: the trend in highschool debate right now is to spend most of the 2AC impact turning the alternative (because most affs can't get away with the link turn and sitting down on cap good is not that popular for various reasons) which means that investing a lot of 2nc time to the trench warfare of impact-turning their offense on your alternative is going to be a hell of a lot less risky than banking on the idea that the judge is going to buy your jiu-jitsu about how your alternative would be this magic new utopian system that we can't describe untill we've rejected the aff (conveniently enough).

 

 

Oh oh. And the perm becomes stupid. Probably a lot of reasons why you can reject the rest of capitalism and not the aff (which forces you to sit down on every instance key and Zizek and all that K-goup). This issue is conceptually resolved in the judge's mind when you advocate an entire seperate world that the aff cannot be a part of (it seems more like a war-of-the-worlds K and less like a floating pic with a poor link). Unless the 1ar is ready to go deep on soc. bad (which they won't be), the aff strat has just been broken in some critical strategic points.

Edited by Michael Leap
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I agree with Michael. Unless you're really experienced with Zizek, you probably shouldn't advocate Iago's position. Soc good will lead to more interesting debates anyway, just run Soc key to democracy/fem/environment or whatever. There's plenty of lit on it.

 

What soc bad has been run against you?

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i dont think you should defend socialism.....if you are running zizek.....

 

 

but you really havent been very clear on what kind of cap k you do run.

 

 

heres a couple of tips....

 

 

 

you should probably say policy making is capitalist

and engage them heavy on why being capitalist is a flawed way of thinking as a framework argument. ethical obligation to reject capitalism the daly evidence should be used here. because like then you can make the argument that there socialism arguments is what is holding the rev back its the fear to take the step away from capitalism that allows it coopt us and maintain in its hegemony that is a unique reason to vote negative because you are the only ones who has a unique way to break away from the violence of the socialism turn and the harms of the aff by having the judge rejecting capitalism

 

 

another way you can flush out this argument is by having your alternative a personal rejection like herrod or kovel or zizek...really just say that the only way we can effect anyone through this round is the people in this round so your alternative is a world where the judge no longer feels oprressed by capitalism the k is a way to show the judge that maybe capitalism isnt the best way of thinking and we should reorient ourselves away from it starting with the judge themselves by signing the ballot....this would take away all of there arguments because ...you dont effect the political...but that should be another link

 

 

then when they socialism bad you can just say that its capitalist propoganda explain why your alt doesnt link.....then say if there is a risk of a link and we win framework you have to evalute the alternative as a better option then the alt.......

 

also you should probably be making the argument that the alternative solves back for the residual harms of socialism because you are going to make an argument that capitalism is what causes calculations and what allows for structural violence to happen in the first place so if you solve for calculating violence becomes impossible in the world of the alt because you wont calculate.

Edited by Iago
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you can counterperm out of soc bad and advocate that......which would be hilarious...if they make perm do both just be like do the perm execpt the socialist parts of the alternative...and extend socialism bad..then you have to win counterperm theory good luck with that mess

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the time you start listening to T ferg is the time when capitalism actually ends. In other words, never.

 

Thanks for neg repping me for suggesting something. If you don't like Iago's way, then ok, but don't neg rep me for just showing someone another way of running the Cap K....

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Most of the time, defending a specific economic system ends up linking the neg to quite a bit of offense; but, if the aff gets up and reads socialism bad just laming out and reading your johnston evidence is going to get you wrecked.

 

I didn't read Tahmoressi's post because of the blatant disregard for grammar or logic. Policymaking is capitalist? Just concede their framework, enjoy the time tradeoff and outweigh the case. Kids these days.

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I'm not entirely sure what the CP would be or whether it would even solve. It's probably abusive anyways.

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Several years ago it was "in" to run a disban the U.S. CP (anarchy). Then people just realized that the implementation of fiat (through the CP) just really messed up the entire argument.

 

Just run it as a Kritik solo.

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i dont think you should defend socialism.....if you are running zizek.....

 

 

but you really havent been very clear on what kind of cap k you do run.

 

 

heres a couple of tips....

 

 

 

you should probably say policy making is capitalist

and engage them heavy on why being capitalist is a flawed way of thinking as a framework argument. ethical obligation to reject capitalism the daly evidence should be used here. because like then you can make the argument that there socialism arguments is what is holding the rev back its the fear to take the step away from capitalism that allows it coopt us and maintain in its hegemony that is a unique reason to vote negative because you are the only ones who has a unique way to break away from the violence of the socialism turn and the harms of the aff by having the judge rejecting capitalism

 

 

another way you can flush out this argument is by having your alternative a personal rejection like herrod or kovel or zizek...really just say that the only way we can effect anyone through this round is the people in this round so your alternative is a world where the judge no longer feels oprressed by capitalism the k is a way to show the judge that maybe capitalism isnt the best way of thinking and we should reorient ourselves away from it starting with the judge themselves by signing the ballot....this would take away all of there arguments because ...you dont effect the political...but that should be another link

 

 

then when they socialism bad you can just say that its capitalist propoganda explain why your alt doesnt link.....then say if there is a risk of a link and we win framework you have to evalute the alternative as a better option then the alt.......

 

also you should probably be making the argument that the alternative solves back for the residual harms of socialism because you are going to make an argument that capitalism is what causes calculations and what allows for structural violence to happen in the first place so if you solve for calculating violence becomes impossible in the world of the alt because you wont calculate.

 

Agreed. I run cap all the time and this is probably the best explanation of the alternative (ie if your reading Zizek cards) in this post. The alternative should be a rejection of the capitalist politics of the 1AC because they endorse a cap system which kills value to life for tons of peeps. You don't defend socialism, you more defend anything but cap. This is a good way of putting it as above "when they socialism bad you can just say that its capitalist propoganda explain why your alt doesnt link.....then say if there is a risk of a link and we win framework you have to evaluate the alternative as a better option {than cap}......." These propaganda cards are probably nonfalsifiable but who cares. You can find plenty of them off lacan.com

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Agreed. I run cap all the time and this is probably the best explanation of the alternative (ie if your reading Zizek cards) in this post. The alternative should be a rejection of the capitalist politics of the 1AC because they endorse a cap system which kills value to life for tons of peeps. You don't defend socialism, you more defend anything but cap. This is a good way of putting it as above "when they socialism bad you can just say that its capitalist propoganda explain why your alt doesnt link.....then say if there is a risk of a link and we win framework you have to evaluate the alternative as a better option {than cap}......." These propaganda cards are probably nonfalsifiable but who cares. You can find plenty of them off lacan.com

If you're defending "anything but cap.," then any socialism bad arguments still apply to your advocacy. You don't get out of anything and your alternative is far from strategic.

 

Also, you both think the link should be "policy making is capitalistic?" You certainly aren't very imaginative in that case, but more importantly I think it shows your alternative to be nothing more than a symbolic gesture with no practical application. Furthermore, your rejection of ALL legislation virtually guarantees that capitalism runs wild because we have to oppose labor/environmental standards and anti-monopoly laws. This means your criticism is actually fodder for the capitalist machine which wants infinitely less regulation. At this point, you have to defend that your alternative (which apparently entails some sort of revolution) is not only possible but probable because in the absence of it being carried out, the capitalist system is functionally emboldened.

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Danny Tanner is right. One of the questions zizek asks of us is whether or not 'more freedom' really does us good. While he admits that the soviet union was certainly not the answer to the rapid emergence of industrial/post-industrial capitalism, zizek does propose that the 'inefficiencies' usually identified with communist governance were not the real problem with the USSR. In fact he sort of suggests that perhaps an "inefficient" government is prefereable to an "efficient" one insofar as "efficiency" translates into the seamless functioning of Capital.

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