Jump to content
aallsup

TOC Ruling

Recommended Posts

And Volen disappears... never to return.

 

I'm pretty sure that most of can come to the consensus that the throw-down between Volen/other parties isn't going to solve the TOC crisis, nor does it necessarily further the cause.

 

As for Volen's absence from this thread, one could surmise that he didn't feel a kid's opinion from Texas about the state of Kansas debate justified a response.*

 

 

 

 

*I do not necessarily advocate this view, as an fyi.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And Volen disappears... never to return.

 

 

Huh. Turns out that calling people jackasses doesn't encourage them to engage in productive discussions. I knew I was doing something wrong losing all those practice rounds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really wish this could have been resolved without creating an ex post facto "penalty" for some kids that set some goals and worked hard to realize them. I hope you all find some peace with things as you guys deserve to live without bitterness...it only hurts you and you deserve better.

 

That said...have we all reached the point of exhaustion yet? Since the thread will really not change the situation the best it can accomplish is raise awareness and somehow be cathartic for those who feel wronged.

 

It seems clear that changes or clarification in policy from previous years should have been made going forward not retro to the beginning of the year. The merits of these actions have been discussed extensively and I don't really wish to dig deeper at this time nor in this place.

 

We should have all treated each other better. We still can going forward. I wish you all the best of luck in the future and the perspective necessary to enjoy it.

 

Swan

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Who won the TOC?

 

Lol, who really cares... its not in Kansas so it can't be any good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Who won the TOC?

 

Also, how is the chairman related to you? I mean in real life, who was the chairman, I've been interested in this for some time and nobody can/will tell me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have been watching this thread for awhile now, and not made a post. I'm going to say this in hopes of trying to prevent anymore animosity within our state and hopefully make steps for compromise in the future. The Rule put into place in January saddens me beyond what most can understand. However bickering about it and making personal attacks will not help the situation (Pam is not looking at this site she just hears what others say and her own opinion). With that said,

 

I think we should not discuss the TOC in the Kansas Forum anymore. It seems like every time we do, instead of trying to resolve problems both sides make personal attacks that fail to help resolve the issue. What has happened is done and the next generation will have to try and persuade KSHAA to change its policies. Until there is a change in the majority opinion of the powers that be this issue will never go away. All we can do is hope that Kansas teams in the future will try as we did, more diplomatically I suppose, to try and change it.

 

(There is not a favorable view of those of us who support the TOC because of the anger we have developed by not being allowed to go. The aggression back and forth from both sides only pushes progress backwards)

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

why do people not just debate in an alternative organization to KSHAA...bypass the 500 mile limit, TOC restrictions, whatever... They really can't do anything if inter highschool debate competition is under regulation of an organization specifically designed for it....i.e. look at Texas, thats what they did.

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
why do people not just debate in an alternative organization to KSHAA...bypass the 500 mile limit, TOC restrictions, whatever... They really can't do anything if inter highschool debate competition is under regulation of an organization specifically designed for it....i.e. look at Texas, thats what they did.

 

Because many of the schools will not fund the activity if there is no KSHSAA state title to be won; nor will they sign off on all the legal requirements for events like the TOC, NFL, etc.

 

I don't disagree with the principle of your suggestion, but the bottom line is that the creation of a debate circuit outside of KSHSAA control would require an entirely new infrastructure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I once posted a family tree of sorts that included Deskboy and his relation to Chairman. Someone with more time/energy perhaps could lead you to that discussion link. It might be in the thread about last year's TOC qualifier at SME.

 

good luck,

chief

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we should not discuss the TOC in the Kansas Forum anymore. It seems like every time we do, instead of trying to resolve problems both sides make personal attacks that fail to help resolve the issue. What has happened is done and the next generation will have to try and persuade KSHAA to change its policies. Until there is a change in the majority opinion of the powers that be this issue will never go away. All we can do is hope that Kansas teams in the future will try as we did, more diplomatically I suppose, to try and change it.

 

I'm kinda against seeing the blister that is this thread fester any further, but I'm generally hesitant to buy your claim that there are only two, distinct sides to this debate, as many people kinda split into different variants. I really do think the problem is that nobody wants to consider the middle ground since the focus of the discussion is NOT how to make national travel and educational responsibilities work together, but rather, whether national travel is good for local debate circuits.

 

I also find the idea of stopping all discussion to be even worse. Why weren't more people informed that KSHSAA was considering this most recent ruling? Why has this policy that 50+ students and teachers in the state complain about on this web-site not being challenged more forwardly in the public level? The problem is FAR from being that there's too much discussion - if anything, the problem is the LACK of discussion. But, this isn't just discussion in general - I agree with you like nobody's business that the real problem is that discussion is limited to juvenile ranting on a cross-x forum. I think refocusing the discussion in terms of: how we could lobby people, who to get a hold of at KSHSAA to discuss the problem, how we can get KSHSAA to change its ruling, etc. - these are the things that need to be discussed... not whether KSHSAA is fascist or not, and certainly not whether students wanting to go to the TOC are 'threatening debate' or 'are brats that just care about themselves.'

 

I don't think there needs to be a 'change in majority opinions' at all - I also don't buy the notion that it's entirely on the shoulders of future high schoolers that would like to go to that tournament. Although I have not talked with people that know more about this (e.g. people @ KSHSAA or people that vote on these things), the discussions on this forum and those that I've had with other students and teachers have consistently boiled down to the assumption that either national circuit debate is good or that national circuit debate will make local debate cease to exist. It is impossible to change these 'majority opinions' as they are not opinions at all, but deep rooted assumptions as to the nature of debate as a state activity. It is possible to convince people assuming these things that a fair medium could exist, e.g. limit number of national tournaments schools can go on/sanction those that break the rules. Granted - these ideas for a middle ground may have already happened, but if the discussions that happen on this site and those I've had with others are ANY reflection of the way the motion is being presented to those that can make change, then quite frankly, it does not surprise me in the least that nobody is really motivated to change anything anytime soon. To say that this is on the students of the future is, in my mind, doing a great disservice to the opportunities to students in this state. It is possible, and necessary, to work with educators as well - I think another great divide in the discussion is how students kinda pack together away from teachers, which only reinforces the idea that those challenging KSHSAA are just whiney high schoolers that don't know what they're talking about... most of us can agree on the notion that even if open national circuit travel is bad, allowing a limited number of tournaments would not threaten the local circuit. If this is true, we not only have an obligation to allow as much diversity in education offered to high schoolers as possible, but it's necessary that this diversity be represented with some authority, and not just the whims of angry high schoolers that are in an angst because they couldn't chill with their TOC buddies over the weekend.

 

In short, discussion is good, but it has to be the right kind of discussion. Continuing this notion of KSHSAA being fascist and those challenging KSHSAA are just selfish brats with no regard to the education of either themselves or their peers just allows people to sit on deep-rooted assumptions as to whether national travel is good or not. People can have these assumptions and admit that some middle ground concessions are not a threat to the activity - until this discussion happens, I think we'll continue to see more KSHSAA policies like the one presented here, and even more frustrating: more threads as atypical and pointless as this one.

Edited by dziegler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In short, discussion is good, but it has to be the right kind of discussion. Continuing this notion of KSHSAA being fascist and those challenging KSHSAA are just selfish brats with no regard to the education of either themselves or their peers just allows people to sit on deep-rooted assumptions as to whether national travel is good or not. People can have these assumptions and admit that some middle ground concessions are not a threat to the activity - until this discussion happens, I think we'll continue to see more KSHSAA policies like the one presented here, and even more frustrating: more threads as atypical and pointless as this one.

 

That was my point. The discussions now are not good, they devolve into personal attacks which is why we should not have them unless we can move past that issue....it's posts like these that are there for the sake of arguing and trying to provoke argumentation that just causes more hostility and no compromise.

Edited by Furry
  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I think refocusing the discussion in terms of: how we could lobby people, who to get a hold of at KSHSAA to discuss the problem, how we can get KSHSAA to change its ruling, etc. - these are the things that need to be discussed... not whether KSHSAA is fascist or not, and certainly not whether students wanting to go to the TOC are 'threatening debate' or 'are brats that just care about themselves.'

 

 

I agree entirely with this. Unfortunately, maybe I'm just pessimistic or have become disillusioned with debate, but I doubt this will ever happen. Here's why:

 

The general consensus among the coaches in Kansas is that the 500 mile rule is a good idea. This is obvious because they voted in favor of it last year.

 

The coaches are not going to go anywhere. This is both their enduring passion as well as their career.

 

If you haven't noticed, the most heated challengers have been high school debaters. This group of people, however, is dynamic. We get raged because we can't go to the TOC. Then, we go to college and debate or do whatever, and forget about it.

 

There is absolutely no consistency to the challenges. So, in the end--the coaches' position will always prevail.

 

But I don't mean to just be naysaying. If reform can occur, then that would be fantastic. Just be aware that consistency is necessary. And the types of changes that everyone is talking about will not happen overnight; rather, it will take a long time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The general consensus among the coaches in Kansas is that the 500 mile rule is a good idea. This is obvious because they voted in favor of it last year.

 

I do not recall any such vote.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Eric, you are probably correct that time is not the reason that TOC can't be sanctioned. I don't know, nor care, why they aren't sanctioned. I do however know that if they were to be sanctioned then this whole issue would go away. And so far, I still haven't heard a single reason that the regulations that being followed by all the organizations that Eric listed, plus NFL and CFL can't be followed by TOC.

 

To all the students who find Aallsup persuasive, please follow his lead and see where it gets you. In fact, follow his advice to the fullest. Go ahead and drop out of school, because you learn more in debate than any classroom. Make sure to tell all your teachers that they were just in your way from spending more time at tournaments.

 

I tell you who must be anti-education, TOC. I mean to deny anyone the amazing education that they would receive over the course of that one magical tournament, just because they don't belong to school. How dare they have standards!!

 

And isn't TOC denying kids the opportunity for the magic of education if they don't get two bids? Aren't kids who didn't get two bids in more need of that magical educational event? Man, rules suck.

 

...

 

For those who want real change, try adapting to the judge rather than leaving the round calling the judge a "facist" and that their reason for decision was "ridiculous". And if you knew that already, thank your teacher/coach.

 

LOL!! Apparently my metaphor was not nearly as clear as I thought! The combination of TOC and KSHSAA was the judging panel. They both voted against you. For some reason, you listened to TOC’s reason for decision, but you refuse to listen to KSHSAA’s. That was the metaphor. My suggestion is for people to quite arguing with the judge (KSHSAA) and start adapting to it.

 

And in this metaphor, Andrew clearly walked out of the room calling the “judge” a fascist rather than trying to learn and help others adapt.

 

You are right. I’m mocking the crap out of you. I confess, it is one of my guilty pleasures... This is the point at which, instead of your partner yelling, “faster”, he yells, “smarter”! Okay, that was an inside joke. I’m sure you are very smart….

 

Hey, and who are the teams going to TOC from Arizona, Maine, Michigan, North Dakota, South Carolina, and Mississippi that prove your point that Kansas is uniquely the only state with standards? I bet the Alaska and Hawaii teams are awesome! I don’t know this for a fact, but could it be that you keep saying Kansas is the only state because you just don’t know about any other states and their activity associations? Perhaps you do. Enlighten everyone on what the activity association for Idaho does for debate and what, if any, standards they have?

 

 

And this too I why I have been posting. Because year after year there will be kids who think their individual aspirations are more important than entire squads and schools.

(emphasis mine).

 

WHAT IS GOING ON HERE? DOES THIS COMMUNITY HAVE NO SENSE OF SHAME? Honestly, Kansas debaters, why are you not ABSOLUTELY OUTRAGED that a COACH is talking like this to a DEBATER??? I would be offended by this level of intellectual and personal disrespect between two debaters, but to see someone who supposedly holds a position of RESPECT and AUTHORITY treating a debater like this is horrible. The way the axis of disrepect was tilting in this thread has been obvious -- AAllsup, Aleph, et al have gone to extreme levels to restrain their emotions about this issue and in response they get mocked by A COACH to this extent and in total disregard for the trouble they went through this year; especially since this guy is a representative of the organization that did this to them. Honestly, if I were a student at this guy's school I would be ashamed, and if I were an administrator there I would seriously consider disciplinary action. Statements made here as a coach are no different from statements made at a tournament -- either way they're in a debate context made by a school official. If he just wants to spout off he could post anonymously, but I think it is unconscionable for a coach to be saying things like this.

  • Downvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If being sarcastic meant you should get fired, I know very few who still may be in the field.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I do not recall any such vote.

 

When my father and I met with Reg Romine at KSHSAA in Topeka last year, Reg informed us that a vote had recently taken place and overwhelmingly concluded in favor of the 500 mile rule.

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If being sarcastic meant you should get fired, I know very few who still may be in the field.....

I don't mean to say anyone should be fired. Just that there should be a higher standard for people who are representatives of educational institutions in positions of authority than there is for an average cross-x.com poster.

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
When my father and I met with Reg Romine at KSHSAA in Topeka last year, Reg informed us that a vote had recently taken place and overwhelmingly concluded in favor of the 500 mile rule.

 

A vote of COACHES? There was a vote of KSHSAA board members on the matter, as I understand it. I certainly don't recall that the matter was placed on the ballot for review for coaches.

 

I should add that I don't know that you're necessarily WRONG in your assumption about the views of the majority of coaches; only that to my knowledge we've never actually been asked.

Edited by STADB9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
there should be a higher standard for people who are representatives of educational institutions in positions of authority than there is for an average cross-x.com poster.

 

Go butt yer dick, dickbutt. :b

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(emphasis mine).

 

WHAT IS GOING ON HERE? DOES THIS COMMUNITY HAVE NO SENSE OF SHAME? Honestly, Kansas debaters, why are you not ABSOLUTELY OUTRAGED that a COACH is talking like this to a DEBATER??? I would be offended by this level of intellectual and personal disrespect between two debaters, but to see someone who supposedly holds a position of RESPECT and AUTHORITY treating a debater like this is horrible. The way the axis of disrepect was tilting in this thread has been obvious -- AAllsup, Aleph, et al have gone to extreme levels to restrain their emotions about this issue and in response they get mocked by A COACH to this extent and in total disregard for the trouble they went through this year; especially since this guy is a representative of the organization that did this to them. Honestly, if I were a student at this guy's school I would be ashamed, and if I were an administrator there I would seriously consider disciplinary action. Statements made here as a coach are no different from statements made at a tournament -- either way they're in a debate context made by a school official. If he just wants to spout off he could post anonymously, but I think it is unconscionable for a coach to be saying things like this.

 

To answer you:

 

1. The activity reaps what it sows - debaters continuously call out coaches. In this thread alone JWP (Man who purposely dragged his feet on the paperwork), KSHAA (fascist), the "big" schools (who, contrary to popular belief, are composed of real people), and Reg Romaine (for taking action on the issue you are debating, literally constructively stating his opinion to the people that actually make the decisions) among others. Coaches are people, they don't like being insulted or even questioned without being able to state their opinions. They were once debaters, and as a classification of people, we don't like being randomly called out.

 

2. Stand up or shut up - you can't look me straight in the face and say that debate isn't moving away from decorum. The world isn't all puppy dogs and rainbows. Debate has started incorporating coaches into the student group - they aren't just officials of the game, they are often friends that actively create the community. Thus, as they become closer (which I'd argue increases the value of debate), they are going to engage in more of the community practices. In short:

 

community = becoming more sarcastic/cutting

coaches = part of the community

coaches = becoming more sarcastic/cutting

 

I know this analysis might be hard to observe from your view in the hyperreal, but think about it.

 

3. He was my coach. I respect him. I'm proud of him. I think I can speak for a few.

 

You can stop reading now earendil since your ad homs show you lack an argument on the issue at hand.

 

A few comments -

There is somewhat of a famous post on e-debate (the college cross-x equivalent) which really addresses a fundamental aspect of the debate community. A card at a prominent college tournament was thought to be "too good." Some said that the card had been written by an author just for the debate topic. The author of the card was contacted about the issue and he functionally responded "No one cares about debate. Get a life. I'm a policy analyst" (this is a paraphrase because he was pretty crass).

 

From what I know about the people at power in the ToC ruling (KSHAA, School Boards, Principals, etc.), I can safetly say they aren't reading "that fancy virtual debate message board." No one is listening. The reason rules haven't changed is because those who are in control of them haven't been informed/lobbied. Change doesn't start here. It can only end here. Debates that lambaste as much as these only serve to divide the community. And, surprising as it may be, a divided community would be worse then any tournament exclusion possible. It would make debate not fun.

 

Also, this alters the way in which arguments should be hashed. The "I deserved it, I worked hard" attitude isn't the way in which to persuade those in charge of the 500 mile rule and the ToC ruling. We know: you deserved it, a bunch before you deserved it; but that doesn't make policy. Debate institutions are concerned about a finite number of things (education, participation, competition, etc.). They look at the broad patterns, not the cases. Maybe we should actually try communicating to those in charge (not each other) that there are clear reasons for change. If the arguments are persuasive (as in they answer some of the more macro level concerns of educators such as Mr. Anderson who poses a participation vs. competition question) those in charge will change policies no matter who's feathers are ruffled.

 

For the debaters, I'm sorry. It sucks. Don't get down, there is college for you. Remember the goals met. ToC success doesn't mean NDT success. Use it as a motivator. The idea that the rhetoric being used in this discussion (on both sides here and there) is rational makes me laugh. This is like a caddy last two rebuttals with more jokes than impact calc. Think of a strategy to change things so this doesn't happen to others, but complaining doesn't fix it. The community just becomes polarized.

  • Upvote 2
  • Downvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...