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state of the State (of Utah) ?

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but i honestly have given up all hope for teams that arent atleast within reasonable driving distance of salt lake.

 

 

Um, what is driving distance? Cause Juab tries. They do well at BYU and at Bingham this year. They are down South. Plus i drive you everywhere, so you shouldn't use that as a unit of measurement.

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What??? Someone please enlighten me.

 

Anyway, now that I'm posting here, I guess I should comment. I have been fairly out of touch with the status of Bingham/Lone Peak lately, so I don't have much to say about them or how they've changed over the years. I'll just talk about policy. It might be best if we all just post about the state of our own schools and then form conclusions.

 

Salt Lake district, in general:

 

My understanding is that there is some crazy stuff going down at the district level involving some schools that could drastically change things for some coaches and schools, or not. We'll see what happens. PM for details, if you're interested.

 

West:

 

West does not yet have a policy coach for next year, but our new head coach is being very helpful so far in finding one, and I am thoroughly convinced that policy at West will not go back to the way it was when she was coach before. The sources of problems have all graduated.

We have 5 very promising rising freshmen, 4 of whom are going to camp. Also, I know Clara posted on the Utah thread that there are lots of possibilities for her partner next year, but it's not because there is nobody else left at West now that Taylor's graduating, it's because she has lots of good options. Expect to see Clara and partner at the TOC next year, and more teams in years to come.

 

Highland:

 

It's important to note that Highland stopped stealing West debaters around the time West started getting nationally competitive and Highland was diminishing :P. Obviously not all of Highland's good debaters transferred from West, though. I don't know what's going to happen to them next year.

 

Roho:

uhh... what is there to discuss? multiple teams likely to go to the TOC next year, as usual. Last year people were worried about what would happen with Chase graduating and all. Remember, Andrew Arsht was a novice last year, and Aria was debating with a calculator, 5 minute constructives, and 2 3 minute rebuttals in New Jersey. Regardless of who is graduating, we can count on Roho to have great NC success consistently.

 

Juan Diego:

apparently making a big effort to expand their program next year. 'Twill be interesting.

 

The state, in general:

West, Rowland Hall, Lone Peak, and Bingham will continue to dominate in state. There will continue to be crappy IE tournaments and many crappy judges in state, as well as some good tournaments and good judges. We will, hopefully, continue to travel together despite us no longer having coaches who all debated at Weber at the same time. We will still be a "team Utah" out of state.

As has been said, 3 teams at the TOC this year is I believe a first for Utah (policy). Utah debate is certainly not dying. Also, Alta became a quarters bid this year instead of a semis bid, which is another indication that Utah is getting better.

I understand some other districts are having issues getting permission to travel? anyone know the current status of that?

 

Who's the new coach for west? i know about the whole situation with Kami but never heard who the new coach was. and is Kiisel not staying? did he get a head coach job elsewhere?

 

And i still hold firm that both Highland and Juan Diego will be policy forces in the future. Juan Diego sooner than Highland. I wouldn't limit the superpowers to just Bingham, LP, Roho and West. Plus Davis seems to always have a good team or two.

 

And as far as camp goes, its really promising with the amount of utahns that are attending a camp. last year i think West, Bingham and Roho wer the only teams to have 3 or more kids go to a camp for policy. This year it looks like Bingham and Roho will have around the same amount but West will have a lot more, plus Juan Diego has at least three, Highland probably three or four and LP will have 7 or 8 instead of just me this year. Huge improvement all around.

 

And as far as Alta goes i think you are wrong on that point Ellie. Alta was a quarters bid only to fill in for a tournament that was cancelled (can't remember which) and is also why golden desert and stanford had extra bids. I will agree that Alta helps the area's competitiveness but i don't think its growing nor will it retain a quarters bid. Plus i don't think the competition was where a quarters bid should be, quite frankly.

 

Finally i think your right about the continuation of the sucky local tournaments, or at least to a good extent. However i think that as long as policy in utah continues to get better, so will the judging. For instance, we'll probably see Ian, Connor, Derrek and possibly Jimmy (don't know where jimmy, david or daniel are going to school) judge at some local tournaments, plus our normal steady and true alum (former highland debaters). So there will still be a good share of crap but hopefully a bigger pool of legit judging as well

Edited by LPCade

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Um, what is driving distance? Cause Juab tries. They do well at BYU and at Bingham this year. They are down South. Plus i drive you everywhere, so you shouldn't use that as a unit of measurement.

 

Juab is my point. they may try but they have not won a policy round against any LP BHS roho WHS or juan diego teams recently have they?

you need to be able to compete at high levels to be able to get good.

 

And as far as Alta goes i think you are wrong on that point Ellie. Alta was a quarters bid only to fill in for a tournament that was cancelled (can't remember which) and is also why golden desert and stanford had extra bids. I will agree that Alta helps the area's competitiveness but i don't think its growing nor will it retain a quarters bid. Plus i don't think the competition was where a quarters bid should be, quite frankly.

 

i dont know if that is all together true... i think alta got its quarters bid before that tourny got cancelled. and i think it was more debate politics and the fact alta DOES have good level of competition is why it got to where it is. AND DO NOT SPEAK OF IT LOSING A BID!

 

For instance, we'll probably see Ian, Connor, Derrek and possibly Jimmy (don't know where jimmy, david or daniel are going to school) judge at some local tournaments, plus our normal steady and true alum (former highland debaters).

 

lol all of the good judges are from highland and for some reason i never realized this

hahaha. way to continue to make utah better highland

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Hayden, whats with the new coaches comment? did Carol leave or were you refering to something else?

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Hayden, whats with the new coaches comment? did Carol leave or were you refering to something else?

 

i was talking about from when this thread started bingham has gotten a new coach

carol is here to stay

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Who's the new coach for west? i know about the whole situation with Kami but never heard who the new coach was. and is Kiisel not staying? did he get a head coach job elsewhere?

 

Mary Ellen Johnson (MJ) is the new head coach for West. She coached for the 6 years before Kami, focusing on LD. We had several LDers at the TOC back then. She and Clara are working on finding a new policy coach.

Kiisel as far as I know has not been offered a head coach job anywhere, although he has been offered at least one assistant coaching job. West has not yet offered him a job for next year, due to beuraucracy.

 

And as far as Alta goes i think you are wrong on that point Ellie. Alta was a quarters bid only to fill in for a tournament that was cancelled (can't remember which) and is also why golden desert and stanford had extra bids. I will agree that Alta helps the area's competitiveness but i don't think its growing nor will it retain a quarters bid. Plus i don't think the competition was where a quarters bid should be, quite frankly.

 

Redlands was canceled, which is why Golden Desert and I think Stanford got extra bids. Alta was bumped to a quarters bid independently. And even though we didn't have all that many entries this year, it's a really competitive pool.

 

However i think that as long as policy in utah continues to get better, so will the judging. For instance, we'll probably see Ian, Connor, Derrek and possibly Jimmy (don't know where jimmy, david or daniel are going to school) judge at some local tournaments, plus our normal steady and true alum (former highland debaters). So there will still be a good share of crap but hopefully a bigger pool of legit judging as well

 

I never said there would be no good tournaments or judges locally. You are of course right that there are numerous great judges. It's just a mixed bag, and those judges are pretty much all from the "superpowers". (Not a bad thing, it's just the reason it's always the debate schools vs. the IE schools in terms of finding panels and such)

Also, Jimmy is going to Gonzaga. Yay for Facebook. Don't know about the Shacks.

 

EDIT: I think Utah has pretty great judging overall. For example, have any of you ever had a policy round judged by an actual lay judge with NO policy background? At least in my experience, it's only at regions and state that schools with no debate events and bad judges provide us with inferior judging. Yay for Utah judges!

Edited by poor.yorick

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my facebook actually has me going to the university of puget sound. which is where I'm going. so yeah I probably won't be around too much... I'll try and come back once or twice to judge for davis (since we basically have zero money and no other alumni to judge for us) but don't count on it. maybe state?

 

anyway I could continue the collective circle jerk but I don't think I have anything new to say... 4 juniors at the TOC, very cool, shows greater promise for next year, etc... Juan Diego will be better next year, fairly cool... Hayden is hot, etc.

 

honestly though Utah debate outside of salt lake makes me weep. logan/ogden area is pretty effin bad. I really don't see it getting better any time soon - with the exception of Logan, who graduated a couple guys last year that kept up with circuit debate pretty well, no one has any good judging, which stifles the potential of any debaters coming out of that area. even worse, there's basically no good coaching, so the only way anyone really gets better is through camp. granted, some people are going to good places (I think one of the logan folks is doing whitman scholars...hm) but by and large the only hope anyone has is SCFI, and while SCFI has actually been impressing me a lot lately, it seems certain people go there and still come back crappy somehow. again, it doesn't matter when the judging pool just randomly hates stuff (like Ks... or T... my tournaments up there are always interesting). plus a lot of the coaching staffs for schools either don't care or are actually interested in "killing" policy. so that's how that's going.

 

oh well. not like anything will change. keep kicking ass folks.

 

oh... I should mention that there are a few people up north that show promise... I really like guarav from logan although I don't think he's able to go anywhere special for camp. sky view also has a pair of novice dudes that, despite having absolutely horrible taste in arguments, are extremely well organized and pretty quick given their lack of experience and location.

Edited by Needs More Consult Japan

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anyway I could continue the collective circle jerk but I don't think I have anything new to say... 4 juniors at the TOC, very cool, shows greater promise for next year, etc... Juan Diego will be better next year, fairly cool... Hayden is hot, etc.

 

once again i can only agree with jimmy.

 

and i want to change my original thoughts on utah policy

i think roho bingham will continue to exist as they have for a long time.

lone peak and juan diego will continue to grow unless something drastic happens

west will soon fail. unless someone like taylor or clara stays and works really hard to save it which i dont see as likely...at all

talks of highland becoming better is a pipedream to me.

i think with west going away utah might succeed in creating another team that does policy but that is dependent on someone starting a squad and putting all of their skills to use. unless they take an effort like juan diego.

and for all places far away from salt lake again are going to lose...always

utah debate overall will stay at the same level unless something drastic happens like old debaters coming in and working their ass off.

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lol at the EPIC FAIL of guessing where he said he was going

shacks=the U

 

He DID post something on facebook at some point that implied that he was going to Gonzaga! Sorry about that... haha.

 

west will soon fail. unless someone like taylor or clara stays and works really hard to save it which i dont see as likely...at all

talks of highland becoming better is a pipedream to me.

i think with west going away...

 

West is NOT going anywhere. We had no freshmen this year, that's true. But you forget that we have 7th and 8th graders who already know a ton about policy debate. Carol can tell you about some of them, who went to the Weber camp between their 7th and 8th grade years. We have one going to SDI and 3 going to SCFI this summer. The 5 8th graders I mentioned earlier are already very knowledgeable, and if even 2 of them keep learning at the pace they are now, we'll still be sending teams to the TOC. Taylor is not a fluke. He is not the first West debater to go to the TOC - JR, Mike, and Dayton all went to west for 2-3 years - and he will not be the last.

Taylor's freshman year, West had NO policy team at all. No coach, and not allowed to travel with the team. And he turned out pretty well. Even though we don't have a coach yet, our situation is not NEARLY as bad as it was then. We will have a coach by the end of the summer, we still have Clara, and all but one person (an 8th grader) who is going to be in high school next year is going to camp. What makes you think that we are about to fail?

Edited by poor.yorick
censoring myself some.

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yeah i stand by what i said--i also think a lot of people would agree with me

its not that i have anything against the school i just dont see it going anywhere. once your coach leaves and a lot of your best debaters go a team collapses hard...jordan, highland etc..

i hope the talent of those young people that you talked about go somewhere that would be able to make them great debaters

otherwise it will be wasted. if they dont have a coach that cares they just wont be good

i vote them going to bingham for selfish reasons!

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He DID post something on facebook at some point that implied that he was going to Gonzaga! Sorry about that... haha.

 

 

 

West is NOT going anywhere. We had no freshmen this year, that's true. But you forget that we have 7th and 8th graders who already know way more about policy debate than most people did by the end of their novice years. Carol can tell you about some of them, who went to the Weber camp between their 7th and 8th grade years. We have one going to SDI and 3 going to SCFI this summer, and they're not even technically novices yet. The 5 8th graders I mentioned earlier are already very knowledgeable, and if even 2 of them keep learning at the pace they are now, we'll still be sending teams to the TOC.

West has never had any problem producing debaters who go to the TOC - Taylor is not a fluke. It's just that many of them transferred to Highland back in the day (JR Maycock, Mike Jones, and Dayton Thorpe to name a few). The situations at both Highland and West have changed since then, and Highland will most likely not be stealing our debaters again any time soon.

Taylor's freshman year, West had NO policy team at all. No coach, and not allowed to travel with the team. And he turned out pretty well. Even though we don't have a coach yet, our situation is not NEARLY as bad as it was then. We will have a coach by the end of the summer, we still have Clara, and all but one person (an 8th grader) who is going to be in high school next year is going to camp. What makes you think that we are about to fail?

 

wow. I've really seen Ellie in such rare, infuriated form (except a couple peaks at scfi). I think West will maintain their position in the policy heirarchy but I would also say i don't think it'll improve as fast as quite a few other schools. I know Ellie brags these junior high kids up but it seems like even if they know policy through and through, more talented debaters with less experience will still surpass them. They'll be strong but they're not all going to be new Taylor Laytons, not too many people are naturally that gifted. I agree with the comments about highland stealing their debaters but JR and the other west-highlanders were what they were in a lot of ways because of coaching AND talent, so i'd agree with Hayden on that note.

 

Overall I think West will be the biggest competition for state next year, along with Bingham and us. it'll be interesting.

 

P.S., Hayden: you really need to learn how to do quotes properly bud.

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yeah i stand by what i said--i also think a lot of people would agree with me

its not that i have anything against the school i just dont see it going anywhere. once your coach leaves and a lot of your best debaters go a team collapses hard...jordan, highland etc..

i hope the talent of those young people that you talked about go somewhere that would be able to make them great debaters

otherwise it will be wasted. if they dont have a coach that cares they just wont be good

i vote them going to bingham for selfish reasons!

No. Just no. I provided an empirical example of specifically West doing well without a coach, and then a brand new coach. Much as I love Kami, Taylor would have done what he did no matter who his coach was, and even with none at all. Kami will be replaced by another competent policy coach. She was only there for 3 years. It's hardly a parallel case to Jordan. Our debaters are not going anywhere - there are other things keeping them at West.

 

Bottom line is, we are not coachLESS, we will just have a new coach, and Kami was not nearly established enough for the team to fall apart without her. As for Taylor, he started out as a novice, he is not a god. You are also not giving Clara enough credit.

Edited by poor.yorick
trying to sound nicer - sorry for losing my temper.

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wow. I've really seen Ellie in such rare, infuriated form (except a couple peaks at scfi). I think West will maintain their position in the policy heirarchy but I would also say i don't think it'll improve as fast as quite a few other schools. I know Ellie brags these junior high kids up but it seems like even if they know policy through and through, more talented debaters with less experience will still surpass them. They'll be strong but they're not all going to be new Taylor Laytons, not too many people are naturally that gifted. I agree with the comments about highland stealing their debaters but JR and the other west-highlanders were what they were in a lot of ways because of coaching AND talent, so i'd agree with Hayden on that note.

 

Overall I think West will be the biggest competition for state next year, along with Bingham and us. it'll be interesting.

 

P.S., Hayden: you really need to learn how to do quotes properly bud.

I'm not going to be able to prove how amazing these 8th graders are - you'll see for yourself next year. But just because they know a lot doesn't mean they aren't naturally talented. Taylor is not some miraculous freak of nature. He will not be the last great debater to come out of West.

Edited by poor.yorick

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Taylor is not some miraculous freak of nature.

 

Yes. He is. But its ok, this thread has also turned into another clusterfuck of utah arguing. We'll see what happens next year so no point in arguing about it now. I guess west will just have to prove themselves next year, thats all there is to it.

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Yes. He is. But its ok, this thread has also turned into another clusterfuck of utah arguing. We'll see what happens next year so no point in arguing about it now. I guess west will just have to prove themselves next year, thats all there is to it.

ok, sorry I kind of got mad there :P Taylor is of course exceptionally brilliant and talented, but my point is he is not one-of-a-kind. I'm not trying to say West has a monopoly on the next generation of Taylor Laytons either. I'm just trying to say we're not about to fail. You're right, we'll have to prove that next year, as will everyone else in Utah, as usual.

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No. Just no. I provided an empirical example of specifically West doing well without a coach, and then a brand new coach. Much as I love Kami, Taylor would have done what he did no matter who his coach was, and even with none at all. Kami will be replaced by another competent policy coach. She was only there for 3 years. It's hardly a parallel case to Jordan. Our debaters are not going anywhere - there are other things keeping them at West.

 

Bottom line is, we are not coachLESS, we will just have a new coach, and Kami was not nearly established enough for the team to fall apart without her. As for Taylor, he started out as a novice, he is not a god. You are also not giving Clara enough credit.

 

i think west was what they were because of kiisel and taylor

you guys had one really really amazing team last year. clara is in a similar position that melissa was at the beginning of this year except a way way worse one.

clara lost all of her coaches. and i think she'll be really good next year. but if she is at the same level she debated at with taylor she's gonna get burned out. and i dont think she'll want to come back to save a crumbling program.. i clearly cant speak for her.. and she could throw in her thoughts but those are mine.

i want west to continue as it has been... i just dont think it will happen.

the sad truth is you need coaches that care. look at all the programs that are doing well. its bingham roho lone peak. maybe juan diego soon.

they all have coaches that work their ass off for a policy squad to exist. you may have teams that pop-up like jimmy or as taylor did without a coach. but the fact is to have a policy program you need consistent coaches. if carol left bingham we could run for a year or two off of what she left behind..but not for long.

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i think west was what they were because of kiisel and taylor

you guys had one really really amazing team last year. clara is in a similar position that melissa was at the beginning of this year except a way way worse one.

clara lost all of her coaches. and i think she'll be really good next year. but if she is at the same level she debated at with taylor she's gonna get burned out. and i dont think she'll want to come back to save a crumbling program.. i clearly cant speak for her.. and she could throw in her thoughts but those are mine.

i want west to continue as it has been... i just dont think it will happen.

the sad truth is you need coaches that care. look at all the programs that are doing well. its bingham roho lone peak. maybe juan diego soon.

they all have coaches that work their ass off for a policy squad to exist. you may have teams that pop-up like jimmy or as taylor did without a coach. but the fact is to have a policy program you need consistent coaches. if carol left bingham we could run for a year or two off of what she left behind..but not for long.

Nobody from West is switching schools. Taylor lost all of his coaches one year too. Also, west had still been good before then, just not at the TOC. Again, what makes you think we won't have a coach who cares? I've talked to Clara and there are several possibilities we're already looking at, and it's only the week after school ended. West has always had one amazing team at a time - we're not as big a school as Bingham. But that's just a difference, not an advantage or disadvantage. Taylor and Kiisel have done wonderful things for West, but their absence won't make us fall apart. Also, Kiisel might be staying, that is undecided as far as I know.

 

You have no reason to say Clara will burn out/quit debate/anything else, and that sort of thing can't be resolved by discussing it on cross-x. She's paying thousands of dollars to go to Northwestern for 5 weeks, and she made that decision after we knew Kami was not coaching next year - she's not going to quit. And she's not going to switch schools because of IB. We will have a bigger squad next year than we have ever had. Maddie (GDI), Julie (CNDI), and I (GDI) are all going to good camps, and could all possibly debate with Clara next year. Cade's right - the only way to resolve this is for us to show you next year that we are not a "crumbling program". I'm just saying it doesn't have to be.

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Interesting thread bump.

 

Two thoughts. First, it's nice to see that Utah debate is strong. I was thrilled to hear about the new Juan Diego program and I have no doubt that the coaches who are currently at the more established programs will continue to do an exceptional job. This is sort of random fluff and not my reason for posting in this thread, but I wanted to give my random hat tip to my lovely Utahns.

 

Second, I think it's pretty horrible to prematurely predict the demise of a program in public. Clara is one of the hardest working, nicest debaters I've ever come across. If you think she's going to have a harder time next year because of bureaucratic difficulties, I would think you would do everything in your power to HELP her and make sure she has the resources to do well, not to continually predict failure. West has had it's ups and downs and yet it's always had a program that did well. This goes back before Kami, and MJ to the prehistoric times when I was debating. Coaches are incredibly important, but if there are kids who are hard working and able to get out and debate, there is usually an alum/college kid nearby who will go out of their way to help those kids out. In the absence of that type of community outreach, it's imperative that programs reach out to each other. The reason I think that West will be fine, and other programs will continue to grow, is that the infrastructure for programs within Utah to support each other has been pretty good lately, and is only getting better. The Weber camp is a great example of this, but the general attitude of Team Utah is just amazing and awesome. You all have a pretty special community, take advantage of that and do whatever you can to continue to help it grow--public predictions of the demise of a program don't seem to be very helpful along those lines, and at minimum are obviously painful for the people in those programs.

 

Lots of love to you all, and keep up the great work!

 

Sara

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Interesting thread bump.

 

Two thoughts. First, it's nice to see that Utah debate is strong. I was thrilled to hear about the new Juan Diego program and I have no doubt that the coaches who are currently at the more established programs will continue to do an exceptional job. This is sort of random fluff and not my reason for posting in this thread, but I wanted to give my random hat tip to my lovely Utahns.

 

Second, I think it's pretty horrible to prematurely predict the demise of a program in public. Clara is one of the hardest working, nicest debaters I've ever come across. If you think she's going to have a harder time next year because of bureaucratic difficulties, I would think you would do everything in your power to HELP her and make sure she has the resources to do well, not to continually predict failure. West has had it's ups and downs and yet it's always had a program that did well. This goes back before Kami, and MJ to the prehistoric times when I was debating. Coaches are incredibly important, but if there are kids who are hard working and able to get out and debate, there is usually an alum/college kid nearby who will go out of their way to help those kids out. In the absence of that type of community outreach, it's imperative that programs reach out to each other. The reason I think that West will be fine, and other programs will continue to grow, is that the infrastructure for programs within Utah to support each other has been pretty good lately, and is only getting better. The Weber camp is a great example of this, but the general attitude of Team Utah is just amazing and awesome. You all have a pretty special community, take advantage of that and do whatever you can to continue to help it grow--public predictions of the demise of a program don't seem to be very helpful along those lines, and at minimum are obviously painful for the people in those programs.

 

Lots of love to you all, and keep up the great work!

 

Sara

 

 

amen

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I think what Hayden's try to say is that other schools are emerging as super power's in the state, and as they grow West may not necissarily be a top dog, but simply a part of the competitive Team Utah. While I don't believe West is going to epically fail I think while these other programs are prospering West has been placed in an unfortunate situation. Losing a coach is hard. But like Sara said Clara is a strong willed girl and I don't think she will allow the program to just die. Team Utah will be a big help to her because we are always there for each other. The more schools that build programs the bigger and stronger Team Utah becomes. If anything I think that as more school's emerge as competitive the less there is a real hegemon in Utah debate. Changes in every program are continual. So it isn't that West will fail, it's that there will be a counterbalancing that everyone will encounter. Some schools will become prominet while others lose some of the spotlight.

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sara thanks for your comment as you likely have much more insight on how utah has been in the past and you have a whole lot more debate knowledge than a lot every will have,including myself

but now i feel i must clear up a few things of what i'm trying to say and my intention of the comment.

first i dont think that west will collapse anytime soon. the effects of them not having a coach will be seen when all of the people who are posting here have graduated. and i love clara and if next year she does seem hurt by not having a stable coach i know for atleast bingham we will help her as much as we can. and i have a feeling the rest of the state will too.

 

second my intention of saying this prediction is not because i hate debate or that i want a program like wests to fail but because i want people to see that at the pace they are at now it will be hard for them to stay at where they have been for the past couple of years. and with this prediction of doom and gloom maybe drastic action will be done to stop it. maybe and hopefully debaters stop having as much school loyalty as they do and when they graduate they can help schools that need help. because right now teams that have the ability to get exdebaters help or good judges are schools that already have a policy dynasty. so maybe the cades or the boys or the shacks wont just help out their alum and help growing or struggling squads...fingers crossed

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west will soon fail. unless someone like taylor or clara stays and works really hard to save it which i dont see as likely...at all

 

yeah i stand by what i said--i also think a lot of people would agree with me

its not that i have anything against the school i just dont see it going anywhere. once your coach leaves and a lot of your best debaters go a team collapses hard...jordan, highland etc..

i hope the talent of those young people that you talked about go somewhere that would be able to make them great debaters

otherwise it will be wasted. if they dont have a coach that cares they just wont be good

 

i think west was what they were because of kiisel and taylor

you guys had one really really amazing team last year. clara is in a similar position that melissa was at the beginning of this year except a way way worse one.

clara lost all of her coaches. and i think she'll be really good next year. but if she is at the same level she debated at with taylor she's gonna get burned out. and i dont think she'll want to come back to save a crumbling program.. i clearly cant speak for her.. and she could throw in her thoughts but those are mine.

i want west to continue as it has been... i just dont think it will happen. the sad truth is you need coaches that care. look at all the programs that are doing well. its bingham roho lone peak. maybe juan diego soon. they all have coaches that work their ass off for a policy squad to exist. you may have teams that pop-up like jimmy or as taylor did without a coach. but the fact is to have a policy program you need consistent coaches. if carol left bingham we could run for a year or two off of what she left behind..but not for long.

 

and then the kicker...

 

sara thanks for your comment as you likely have much more insight on how utah has been in the past and you have a whole lot more debate knowledge than a lot every will have,including myself

but now i feel i must clear up a few things of what i'm trying to say and my intention of the comment.

first i dont think that west will collapse anytime soon. the effects of them not having a coach will be seen when all of the people who are posting here have graduated. and i love clara and if next year she does seem hurt by not having a stable coach i know for atleast bingham we will help her as much as we can. and i have a feeling the rest of the state will too.

 

 

hmmmmm........

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yes cade.

and i they dont contradict. i'll go bold line by bold line

1st soon is a vague word the only place gave a more specific timeline was in the last comment which i stand by

2nd i dont think people will help out after they graduate enough to save it if it doesnt have a coach. mostly because i think clara will likely go out of state...she's very smart you know

3rd stand by what i said. still do. clarification doesnt change much. it more or less clarifies

4th yep no coaches seems like you cant be coached. if someone helped out after they graduated. then scenario is different. but my original prediction included noone helping. would you like to help them after you graduate?

5th they are in like 7th grade when i was in 7th grade jordan was still the 5A champ. showing things change a lot in that amount of time. i guess less for them because they would be going into debate a year earlier than i did...but i was speaking off of what i know

6th yeah coaches rock...yay! not a lot of people will argue clara grew a lot this year. at the beginning of last year she was a different debater. debating with taylor and with the coaching of kiisel made her now amazing. so logically that still makes sense.

7th still dont think she'll come back to coach west...look above.

8th yep still stand by you need coaches...lalala

and finally yes i still stand by that too... if you do cool quoting with what i said above too i said if carol left bingham would be able to exist 'for a year or two off of what she left behind' and that was refering to a squad where people stay for three years at the most clearly different for west they have four years but same concept. teams need coaches. people should help teams. basic things that i think should happen...

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