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Michigan State tourney

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Holt made it to quarterfinals for the first time in Holt history. yay. I would like to point out that our little 2-person team did hardly any work as far as research and certainly no practices were held. we had no other teammates to flow other rounds or anything of the sort. We had no budget and had to pay for the trip ourselves. we had no coaching and didn't go to camp this past summer. I'd say breaking at states was quite the accomplishment. Congrats to the rich kids for winning and to the poor kids that made it!

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Elk Rapids made it to finals with Brother Rice...even though we lost on the split ballot, it's the farthest we've ever made it. We had a three-person team and had to pay for ourselves...

 

It was intense. Especially since right after semi-finals, all the other up-north types came together and we threw together all our evidence and flows in an attempt to bring ourselves closer to the first-place trophy...

 

The best part is, we didn't even plan on going. We had a four-person team, but our senior realized he couldn't go about three weeks before the tourny. So the aff half of our team trained for first negative, ignoring our aff case and all, and traded off as 1N with our resident 2N. At State we rotated for 1N and went aff together whenever we had aff rounds.

 

Next year, with our resident 2N gone...looks like it'll be two-girl team.

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Elk Rapids made it to finals with Brother Rice...even though we lost on the split ballot, it's the farthest we've ever made it. We had a three-person team and had to pay for ourselves...

 

It was intense. Especially since right after semi-finals, all the other up-north types came together and we threw together all our evidence and flows in an attempt to bring ourselves closer to the first-place trophy...

 

The best part is, we didn't even plan on going. We had a four-person team, but our senior realized he couldn't go about three weeks before the tourny. So the aff half of our team trained for first negative, ignoring our aff case and all, and traded off as 1N with our resident 2N. At State we rotated for 1N and went aff together whenever we had aff rounds.

 

Next year, with our resident 2N gone...looks like it'll be two-girl team.

I have a suggestion.

 

Information about the arguments of your opponent is very, very powerful at the State tournament. The proper application of that information is both a huge challenge and one of the best advantages you could possibly secure for yourself. Large programs, or those with lots of helpers present (this year my program qualified as the latter) will send scouts to gather all the relevant info and then process it into responses or strategies. Schools that do not bring many people to the tournament may believe that they must survive the event without access to any of this, but I believe that your description of the pre-finals collaboration shows an opportunity that you could really utilize in the future.

 

Simply put: begin the collaborative process earlier. Set up simple guidelines for what information to exchange and where it goes, and maintain that exchange throughout the tournament. Take it as far as you like; you could even share responses or thoughts about how to counter other teams, or perhaps just sketches of the affirmative cases. Debaters can only absorb so much information at once, and knowing one's opponent is not a magic wand. But I think that if something like this were tried the magnitude of the difference would surprise a lot of people.

 

There are many details one could ask about, and many objections one could raise. These are all valid questions and discussions. All I'm saying is this: if the spirit of friendship helped you somewhat during an excited rush before the last debate, imagine what it might accomplish in a more determined and deliberate manner throughout the weekend.

 

Congratulations to Elk Rapids for a great performance and an interesting final round debate.

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Holt made it to quarterfinals for the first time in Holt history. yay. I would like to point out that our little 2-person team did hardly any work as far as research and certainly no practices were held. we had no other teammates to flow other rounds or anything of the sort. We had no budget and had to pay for the trip ourselves. we had no coaching and didn't go to camp this past summer. I'd say breaking at states was quite the accomplishment. Congrats to the rich kids for winning and to the poor kids that made it!

 

I think that this assumption of wealth being the deciding factor in winning something like the state tournament is unfounded and a poor conclusion, at best.

In this post, you yourself said that you didn't do any research or have any practices, and likely the research teams do before the state tournament (or any other tournament) is infinitely more important than the wealth of the students. Moreover, I think saying that money is the deciding factor is pretty much a cop out. I guarantee you that Groves and Okemos have substantially less money in their budgets than schools like Detroit Country Day. If camp was your concern, I know for a fact that many institutes offer scholarships to students that can't afford to go.

Your point about being able to gather intel and flow rounds is valid, but was also answered above by Orion's post. Smaller schools should take it upon themselves to collectively gather intel and work with one another to balance the advantage of larger squads. This effectively neutralizes the advantage of larger or wealthier schools.

 

Does money help in running a successful debate program? Sure. Is it it the most important component? No.

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That's probably the first time anyone has actually taken a post by Phil seriously. He didn't mean it as an indict of you guys, I'm rather sure. And yeah, amount of effort put into it is a bigger deciding factor that money.

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Even if Phil didn't mean what he says I think that questions of funding can be easily remedied if debaters were willing to work for it(i.e. fundraising etc...). Novi certainly doesnt have an army of debaters or coaches, and we definately arent rolling in the dough, but that's no excuse. Even small schools with tiny teams can make it if individual debaters are willing to put forth the effort. There are several examples of teams with very small budgets doing very well at large tournaments. And if intel is the problem you should take the initiative and attempt to expand your debate team, recruit your friends etc... It would be great to have a bottomless budget, but the fact is that is a very small part of what it takes to be a strong debate team. I know that Groves was constantly cutting cards and scouting throughout the entire state tournament and every debater was contributing for the success of the team, rather than individual glory, and that is what it takes to be successful.

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Interesting to Note:

In D2, prelim record mattered little when it came down to it: Dow went 11-1 in prelims and PorNo went 12-0 yet neither one of them was in final round.

 

Congrats to everyone.

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I think that this assumption of wealth being the deciding factor in winning something like the state tournament is unfounded and a poor conclusion, at best.

In this post, you yourself said that you didn't do any research or have any practices, and likely the research teams do before the state tournament (or any other tournament) is infinitely more important than the wealth of the students. Moreover, I think saying that money is the deciding factor is pretty much a cop out. I guarantee you that Groves and Okemos have substantially less money in their budgets than schools like Detroit Country Day. If camp was your concern, I know for a fact that many institutes offer scholarships to students that can't afford to go.

Your point about being able to gather intel and flow rounds is valid, but was also answered above by Orion's post. Smaller schools should take it upon themselves to collectively gather intel and work with one another to balance the advantage of larger squads. This effectively neutralizes the advantage of larger or wealthier schools.

 

Does money help in running a successful debate program? Sure. Is it it the most important component? No.

 

I guess I made the mistake of making people think I was complaining about rich people or something, because that was not my intention. I was more or less boasting to the fact that our team broke. I was very pleased with what A. Jay and I accomplished. We really didn't hold high-hopes for that tourney, to be honest. I was merely making the point that considering our heavy lack of resources (money or otherwise) and lack of work commited, breaking to quarters was a personal success. We were, after all, the first Holt team to break at states in D1. I admit, I shot myself in the foot when I said 'congrats to the rich kids for winning', but that wasn't the heart of my comments.

 

In any case, WARSH, i never said money was a deciding factor in anything. I merely tried to articulate that our success was pleasing, considering we had no coaching and did little research. Please don't patronize me with your 'work-ethic' shpeel. Can you honestly tell me that your huge matching vans hauling countless peons and coaches to every tournament doesn't help you out a little? I would never say that the most successful teams don't deserve their winning records. Hell, You're probably the smartest kid in Michigan, at least that I know, and you've basically become a legend in debate world (pianist world too?). I'm sure your team works their asses off for each tournament, and considering your team last year was filled with a bunch of alcoholics, I'd say groves deserves its thunder. no matter how big or small you think it is, you do have an advantage over many other schools. I'm not gonna say thats why you win and I'm not trying too paint a picture of 'rich kids versus the poor kids' - that would be dumb. I'm saying that having full-time, paid coaches and money for camp might help us out a tad, like it helps you out.

 

In all honesty, though, congrats on winning states. Your team deserves it, really. just remember to use your powers for good, and not evil!

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Dude,

 

You have the disembodied spirit of Coleman Young working against you here. It's time to just walk away. And, quit with the ad homs.

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