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um.. you're missing the point.

 

1. In this book I was reading there was a college student survey women were aroused when shown video of "rape fantasy" where the female was shown to only have orgasm but men were often aroused by the combination of pain + orgasm. (it was suggested that a feeling of power arises in forcing the victim to orgasm despite the pain)

 

2. If the want/need to feel powerful is what drives men to rape fantasy/power play I would conclude that in general these men live in a comparative state/or feel like they are in a general state of powerlessness.

 

3. Question: Why would men feel powerless in a patriarchal society?

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um.. you're missing the point.

 

1. In this book I was reading there was a college student survey women were aroused when shown video of "rape fantasy" where the female was shown to only have orgasm but men were often aroused by the combination of pain + orgasm. (it was suggested that a feeling of power arises in forcing the victim to orgasm despite the pain)

 

2. If the want/need to feel powerful is what drives men to rape fantasy/power play I would conclude that in general these men live in a comparative state/or feel like they are in a general state of powerlessness.

 

3. Question: Why would men feel powerless in a patriarchal society?

 

What is the source of that study?

I think it's kinda an odd result. I mean, a lot of people into bdsm are into pain. This includes women into inflicting pain, women into pain being inflicted on them, etc. And men on both ends as well. I think that collapsing BDSM into simple gender categories, (like patriarchal societies) is problematic. The other thing is that I don't know how this rape fantasy thing plays out into a field of bdsm. Like what sort of pain? What sort of rapes were shown? I think all of this matters. What if the no pain/orgasm rape was making the woman into the center of sexual attention? In a positive, loving way? ie, in a way that is not at all like rape (the fact that someone is "forced" and tied down, doesn't mean that it seems forced at all). The second video, involving pain, what if the rape in there was actually a sign of forcing the woman to do whatever the man wanted? What if the pain was not the cause of stimulation, but rather the ability to to have all sexual desires fulfilled? In this way, maybe the sexual attention is not on the man, rather than the woman?

 

I could go through a million different deviations, including facial expressions, music, etc. (Porn functions at the levels of the affects, just like ideology). The point is I'd like to see how the study isolates pain as the central deviation.

 

I think all of this is a lot more complex than a question of patriarchy.

 

But thanks for bringing this up, I think it is an interesting question.

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So here's one of the interesting things. All these 80s studies on rape repeatidly show that the majority of the men that wanted to rape thought/desired for the woman to be turned on and enjoy the rape. A rather significant drop off occurs when you talk about men being turned on by rape that is totally unwanted. In a way, when you talk about rape that is actually seen as rape (unwanted sexual encounters). I think the more fucked up part of this is the tendency to view rape as not rape (as something the woman really really wants in the end).

 

check out this link http://www.dianarussell.com/menrape.html

and the lit review at the top of this link http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2294/is_n3-4_v35/ai_19027734 (I haven't finished reading this article, so if gets interesting someone should let me know).

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First, I hope you understand that this is all very preliminary research. I don't know where this is taking me but I feel it is becoming huge. If you recall this is a subject I've been thinking about for over two years. I feel like understanding completely the rape phenomena could be a rosetta stone of sorts when it comes to society. This could be misguided idea but regardless, I feel that in the present rape is under researched. So far my ideas haven't been formed completely enough to garner any real academic discussion... so that's where I am at the moment.

 

What is the source of that study?

 

Understanding Sexual Violence: A Study of Convicted Rapists by Diana Scully (pg. 151-152)

 

I think it's kinda an odd result. I mean, a lot of people into bdsm are into pain. This includes women into inflicting pain, women into pain being inflicted on them, etc. And men on both ends as well.

 

I am with you on the fact that often social scientists do not take into account crucial details in specific variables, however, I think at some point the data should be used to make new and important questions such as the one I propose above. IF what the data says is true does this lead to questions about the male in a patriarchal society? I should also add that I am getting into some research on masculinity(ies). So maybe I can add more to this in a sec.

 

Going back to the accuracy of the results...My reading of the above (151/152) leads me to believe that the researchers did take into account some of what you mention. For example, the groups were distinguished as those who are into "pain" in general and those who were not. There seemed to be reasonable control groups. The passage also led me to believe that other social variables such as the black-white aspect of motive for sexual violence were also seperated from this particular test to get a more acute statistic.

 

I think that collapsing BDSM into simple gender categories, (like patriarchal societies) is problematic.

 

I haven't narrowed this down to bdsm. It's more subjects who are strictly into rape fantasy. And to be honest at this very moment I am in the process of trying to narrow down what that definition would be (a harrowing endeavor, I may add.) And so far "rape fantasy" and those who practice seem to be distinct cultures to me. Rape fantasy tends to parallel actual rape scenarios instances; subjects often include: domestic rape, rape in the military, russian mafia related rapes, etc.

 

BDSM, from what I gather--which I cannot stress enough the fact that I am still in the process of gathering-- seems to have an distinct, almost theatrical aspect.

 

other thing is that I don't know how this rape fantasy thing plays out into a field of bdsm. Like what sort of pain? What sort of rapes were shown? I think all of this matters.

 

I don't really know how it plays into bdsm either. I do plan on looking into that at some point.

 

What if the no pain/orgasm rape was making the woman into the center of sexual attention? In a positive, loving way?

 

could you explain? I don't quite understand... What do you mean by "center of sexual attention"?

 

ie, in a way that is not at all like rape (the fact that someone is "forced" and tied down, doesn't mean that it seems forced at all).

 

this seems to tie into the difference between bdsm and "rape fantasy." In rape fantasy the 'victim' "does not want to be tied down." [source on this is people who openly into specifically rape fantasy. I could send you this stuff but I don't think it is appropriate to post the link here; privacy etc.]

 

The second video, involving pain, what if the rape in there was actually a sign of forcing the woman to do whatever the man wanted?

 

I think that was the point in both films.

 

What if the pain was not the cause of stimulation, but rather the ability to to have all sexual desires fulfilled?

 

I think in the description of methodology in the text, the college students were the one's that described the experience of watching the video. So I imagine the survey explicitly distinguished whether the pain was the cause of arousal or the control. Which kind of go hand in hand so it's a little confusing, yes.

 

In this way, maybe the sexual attention is not on the man, rather than the woman?

 

Again, what do you mean the attention is on the woman? Is this what you meant by "positive"? For the woman to be the center of attention?

 

I could go through a million different deviations, including facial expressions, music, etc. (Porn functions at the levels of the affects, just like ideology).

 

I thought about whether what you mention should go into account (the music etc.) But like you said pornography in general is an appeal to emotions. By the fact that porn without pain is porn, porn with pain is still porn and both use similar appeals to the emotions, I think when using one as a control variable it is not necessary to get into the details of the other as long as a wide range of non pain & pain are used in the experiments.

 

The point is I'd like to see how the study isolates pain as the central deviation.

 

Yeah, I'd like to look at the actual questionnaires etc. at some point, too.

 

I think all of this is a lot more complex than a question of patriarchy.

 

I agree. But here I think you are implying a cause and effect that I did not intend. I am not saying patriarchy = male feeling of powerlessness = rape (fantasy). I am saying in a patriarchal society (versus other societies) X = male feeling of powerlessness = rape (fantasy). Does X exist? What is X?

 

There is also the point brought up in the book about the violent images themselves may be the perpetuators of violent fantasy. I believe it's the portion where the researchers compared the "non-pain" group who viewed pain-porn with the "non-pain" group that viewed the porn w/out pain. After the fact both groups were told to describe a sexual fantasy. The former had more violence in the fantasy. etc.

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So here's one of the interesting things. All these 80s studies on rape repeatidly show that the majority of the men that wanted to rape thought/desired for the woman to be turned on and enjoy the rape.

 

Doesn't this still fall under making [having the power to make] her enjoy the rape?

 

A rather significant drop off occurs when you talk about men being turned on by rape that is totally unwanted.

 

because mission was not accomplished?

 

In a way, when you talk about rape that is actually seen as rape (unwanted sexual encounters). I think the more fucked up part of this is the tendency to view rape as not rape (as something the woman really really wants in the end).

 

this gets into the distinction between rape and rape fantasy which is the first question I'm going to have to answer. Is there a difference? There seems to be a number of things that go with this: the rapist thinks the woman really wants it, or the woman deserves it (for being a slut, or for being a tease... for *being*, really), there is also inaccessibility, because it is a "right," and more.

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no it doesn't - us porn business is boosted either way which means the net benefit o/w marginal solvency boost

 

we should stop distracting from the actual discussion.

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General.

For: Release in itself is a healthy, normal activity. Pornography helps. Is it empowering? Maybe, it all depends on the situation..[keep reading]

Against: Different people do it for different reasons and have different views before and after viewing pornography. I'm assuming that 'release' is involved or as a result of the content. After that I think too many assumptions have been made for many issues in the thread. [Most chose to speak about effect rather than cause.] How does one feel before viewing pornography? Does this have any correlation to how they feel after viewing?--Do people who feel one way [x] generally feel y as a result?

 

Personal

For: Same as above..

Against: I'm seriously considering the fact that the debate community does not love..Kidding, but there aren't [except a brief thought by Scu] any posts involving it. I feel that the person that i eventually love should be one who is at my level. I feel that watching porn, greatly influences how you will view your spouse. Also, I will make the personal claim that watching porn is cheating her. [imagine not even meeting the woman/man of your dreams, and you have already cheated them] AGAIN, personal opinion and factors comes into play: maybe I want to love someone who likes to be dominated? maybe I don't want to love; thus i watch porn, what is love any ways???

 

 

This is what I think, and I deliberatly seperated general from personal..

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"you dont know what love is Forrest"

 

 

but he did all along didn't he...

 

The question was more rhetorical, and from a 3rd person point of view.

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i don't think its necessarily sexist, but naturally it tends to appeal more to guys. It all depends on what you consider porn. I think the dirty romance novels(you know the ones i'm talking about) are porn. And those tend to appeal more to women. I've heard some scientists think its because guys are more appealed to things visually. Women like to feel things, (thats why we talk about our emotions). Of course their may be exceptions, but this is generalized. So to put it simple, girls are turned on by feelings, guys are turned on more visually. Once again it does not mean that this is the way it always works out.

 

All in all we learn early in boys and girls are different, one is not better than the other, they are just different. So naturally we might handle "porn" differently

 

I personally feel that porn is not right. Of course everyone has a right to their opinion. I agree with feinhandler. Anything that has the power to be addicting can have the power to be harmful. I feel porn encourages the idea that sex is impersonal and is just "hooking up". I think it devalues how special sex is suppost to be. Sex was not intended for the way porn plays it off to be. As a female, i do somewhat feel is makes it seem like the only parts of me that are important are what turns a guy on. But thats me personally.

 

Besides if porn is so right, then why are people so ashamed when they get caught watching it. Because in our hearts as human beings, we know its wrong.

Edited by okiefrvr

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Besides if porn is so right, then why are people so ashamed when they get caught watching it. Because in our hearts as human beings, we know its wrong.

 

Embarrassed or ashamed? I get embarrassed if someone walks in on me while I'm sitting on the toilet... does that mean taking a shit is wrong? I think it's more a factor of social control than being "right or wrong."

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It means we consider sex private.

 

This has only really been true since the Victorian age. Before that, sexual practice and taboos were treated with deference within the social sphere. Just think of the bath houses in imperial Rome. See Michel Foucault's "The History of Sexuality Vol. I"

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This has only really been true since the Victorian age. Before that, sexual practice and taboos were treated with deference within the social sphere. Just think of the bath houses in imperial Rome. See Michel Foucault's "The History of Sexuality Vol. I"

Foucault fucked a sheep

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