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JamieDenning

what's the point of making a PERM if you know it wont get you anywhere?

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lets say for example the counterplan is an XO. the neg. says that they're running it dispositionally (any theory other than dispo bad and/or any PERMs means they can kick the CP).

 

whats the point of making a PERM in this kind of situation? you will almost guaranteed not win the PERM since it will link to the net benefit (politix and/or prez powers).

 

i always see people making a "do both" PERM but i never get it since it never seems to get you anywhere, in fact, it might only skew 2ac strat and time since now the neg. can kick the cp.

 

thoughts?

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Competitiveness test? I mean you can always drop the perm, you don't have to take it as your new advocacy.

 

yes but you missed the entire point of my post, by making the PERM, the neg. is now allowed to kick the counterplan. this will screw you over if the neg team is smart (IE - you wont know how much time to spend on cp/NB in the 1ar if they can kick it or not kick it)

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I see your dillema, it depends on the quality of answers to the CP. If you don't have grreeeeeeeat answers and/or want the CP db8 to go away, make a perm, if for nothing else give an easy out to the other team. Make your perm really clear and slowly, and then read a slew of really fast, nearly incomprehensible args on the CP, they'll hear a bunch of shit that they don't want to respond to, and extend your perm to kick out the CP.

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perm = neg time suck. while it takes 2 seconds to say "permutation: do both the plan and counterplan" and another second to say "perm do the counterplan" this forces the neg to instruct the judge to take a new sheet of paper out just to put all these answers on the perm. usually, teams who do that spend around 2-3 minutes doing this.

 

i think perms are test of competition.

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If they're running an agent CP dispo then your opponents are rather stupid and it shouldn't really matter what arguments they make because you are going to pwn them.

 

I always think that if you have offense on the counterplan, and a perm gets the same solvency as counterplan alone (ie, XO+congress is functionally the same solvency as just congress) you should read your offense and defense and stick them with a counterplan that you've straight-turned. This is also very helpful if they've read any DAs that link to the counterplan, and they concede in CX that the DAs link equally to the counterplan. Then, you just concede the DAs and go for the counterplan, wasting their 1NC time and leaving you with an easy 1AR (the counterplan, some theory, case, and maybe a T or two).

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If they're running an agent CP dispo then your opponents are rather stupid and it shouldn't really matter what arguments they make because you are going to pwn them.

 

I always think that if you have offense on the counterplan, and a perm gets the same solvency as counterplan alone (ie, XO+congress is functionally the same solvency as just congress) you should read your offense and defense and stick them with a counterplan that you've straight-turned. This is also very helpful if they've read any DAs that link to the counterplan, and they concede in CX that the DAs link equally to the counterplan. Then, you just concede the DAs and go for the counterplan, wasting their 1NC time and leaving you with an easy 1AR (the counterplan, some theory, case, and maybe a T or two).

I'd agree with this. If the negative is running an agent CP dispo, you should just avoid giving them an easy-out on the CP, and straight-turn the NB's.

 

However, another strategy if you really want to hurt them is to make them scew their time a bit - not only should you straight-turn the NB's, but you should perm the NB's in line with your arguments as well. Example:

 

CP - XO

XO's build PC - passes ports and they're good

 

Uniqueness - ports will pass now

Link Turn - Plan is popular - helps ports, making the DA an advantage for the aff.

Straight Turn - XO's fuck capital - fails ports

 

Perm - do plan and pass ports. W/o case-specific link to the DA, it's terminally N/U, and our evidence suggests that the perm would happen anyhow, thus negating any abuse stories. AND, they're stuck with the CP.

 

 

 

However, why not perm the CP anyhow? Once you're straight-turned the NB's, they're prolly gonna be hurting anyhow, cuz their intention was for you to perm the DA, and them kick it and go for new stuff, however, now you have two or even three new advantages on the flow that they gotta respond to the offense on. It's strategic for the perm to invite the CP kicking, because with all the turns on the NB's, they'll most likely want to get out of that debate, however, then they gotta answer the 2AC offense.

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This question didn't require these lengthy answers. Perms as mentioned, are an excellent time suck if you need it. So is a straight turned counterplan. The answer then: if your ready to ball up and straight turn the CP do it, otherwise perms can have strategic and time suckage value.

The higher up you get in debate, the less you're going to hear agent counterplans and the more important perms become. Example - consult counterplans (caveat: I'm not saying consult cps are upper level debate), the straight turn is usually a gift to a consult cp runner because sticky theory and perm debates are easier to lose and require more time to answer then they did to posit in the 2ac. I have 15/13 minutes to go nuts with new impact modules and O on your turns.

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Competitiveness test? I mean you can always drop the perm, you don't have to take it as your new advocacy.

 

Sure you can drop the perm, but you are tossing fiat at the negative team. That makes things hard. Sometimes.

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All that above and as long as you've got good d and maybe some offense on the disads (or whatever they're using as a net benefit) if they actually kick the counterplan that royally screws their strategy and means they have to win at least one of the disads cold. This combined with the time suck that is inherent to a simple perm for the neg (as explained above) means the perm is an excellent part of the aff strat because it can do all that test of competition crap and possibly keep the neg from answering your d and o on their disads (at least as well as they would).

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This combined with the time suck that is inherent to a simple perm for the neg (as explained above) means the perm is an excellent part of the aff strat because it can do all that test of competition crap and possibly keep the neg from answering your d and o on their disads (at least as well as they would).

 

I completly agree. Perms are great timesucks.

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Yeah. I try to make good arguments out of perms when i can though, especially on kritiks, it's my best chance when i don't know what the hell they're talking about

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I only read the first 3 posts so I don't know what other people said, but you always need to perm because it checks the 2NC or 1NR from reading non-mutually exclusive net benefits.

 

basic example with con-con, 2AC doesn't perm and in the 2NC the neg reads some arg that con-con is good independent of the plan. if the 2AC had perm'ed they would have captured any generic con-con good argument.

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yes but you missed the entire point of my post, by making the PERM, the neg. is now allowed to kick the counterplan. this will screw you over if the neg team is smart (IE - you wont know how much time to spend on cp/NB in the 1ar if they can kick it or not kick it)

In many judges eyes if you can perm the CP they will put it on a lower weight in the round. Also, the perm can skew their time managment just as much as it can skew yours, if they undercover it you have a good chance to win. It really gets you a foot in the door against the counterplan. You genreally want to spend the majority of your time attacking the net benefit, because really if there isn't a net benefit, what's the point of the counterplan? Attacks on the counterplan itself are genreally only valueable if they are da's or k's against it, or unless the counterplan is absurd (ahem consult Bin Laden)

So really if they are running a dispositional counterplan you can do two things to turn what they think is an advantage on them. Yes, I know theory debates aren't fun, but read your blocks to dispositional counterplans bad, and then spend as much time as you possibly can on the net benefit, if they are planning to kick if you perm this screws their strat. Or just avoid perms in genreal if you have good ground against the net benefit.

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Perms are good time tradeoffs. Also, there is no rule that you can't kick the perm in the 1AR and stick them with the CP in the 2NR. Straight turning things in the 1AR forces the neg either into going for too many positions or the positions you want them to go for. If they spend all of their time answering the perm and not doing as good a job on the rest of the debate (say maybe you have a really good disad to the CP), then you can kick the perm in the 1AR and force them to go for the CP that has a massive turn on it.

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Hmm, in my opinion the perm is always a link test...never an advocacy

 

Also a good time tradeoff, you say Perm do both, they have to spend at least 15 seconds responding and if they miss it you just took out their CP/K...

 

I always make a perm unless I'm straight turning it...

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sometimes if you perm against a bad team they won't kick out of it properly and then you can advocate the perm throughout the round, and possibly use the new perm advocacy to dodge their links to the other non NB d/a's, i.e. the d/a links to the plan alone but not to our new perm advocacy

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Perm: do both is sweet against XO CP. It solves presidential powers (sure they will argue it doesn't, but I disagree), and any turn on politics is a netbenefit.

 

2AC:

 

Perm do both

Executive overstretch (president thinking too much/having too much power actually causes a collapse in his power and foreign policy)

 

 

Block:

AT: Perm

- links to politics

- doesn't solve XO power (crappy, out of context card)

- supreme court will strike down perm (crappy, out of context card again... hmm there seems to be a trend on executive power debates towards terrible, brinkless evidence)

 

 

1AR

 

-turns on politics = net benefit

-cooperation with congress solves overstretch

- Bush will use signing statements to solve XO power. This way he works with congress (solving the overstretch evidence) and maintains power over congressional action

- Supreme court won't strike down. But even if they do, court activism good (another net benefit to perm)

 

 

It simply gives you more options in the 1AR. If you have a clean kill with a straight turn, you can go for a straight turn in the 1AR by not extending perm/theory. It's rare for the block to kick a dispo CP anyway (and really not smart because that gives the aff more time to leverage case against the disads).

 

Coincidentally, there's arguments justifying "Perm do the CP" against agent CPs and such. This is most likely to work if you don't spec your A.

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sometimes if you perm against a bad team they won't kick out of it properly and then you can advocate the perm throughout the round, and possibly use the new perm advocacy to dodge their links to the other non NB d/a's, i.e. the d/a links to the plan alone but not to our new perm advocacy

 

No, you cannot. Your perm can only answer offense if the CP is still on the flow. All the perm does on the CP/K flow is answer 1) What does not give a reason to reject me, and 2) Everything else is stuff I have to answer.

 

If they kick the CP, it's smarter to extend your Uniquness/Link Turns on their offense - they have a battle uphill proving that 1) the status quo doesn't link to the DA, and 2) That you don't solve it.

 

Shady moving target crap is bad. Extending the straight-turn is good.

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Coincidentally, there's arguments justifying "Perm do the CP" against agent CPs and such. This is most likely to work if you don't spec your A.

 

That would seem to only apply if the CP was Plan+.

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if you want to perm without them kicking it just run like 2 points of dispo bad theory. You'll get a good time trade-off on both of them and they cant just say extend the perm and kick out of the cp.

 

Edit: One of those points on dispo bad should be conditionality in disguise- they can just force us to perm and kick it. then just say time skew moving target whatever youre into.

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Exactly, if you run dispo bad with the intention of possibly going for it in the 1AR, one of your point must be dispo=cond, we must perm its the only strategic option.

 

If yoou don't perm your theory is essentially invalidated...

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