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Idaho Nat Quals.

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not really. it's not that these kids can't speak slowly and articulate ideas clearly, it's that a lot of eastern judges are dumb. it's one thing to lose rounds because you can't communicate effectively, it's another to lose rounds because your argumentation is too difficult for some to understand.

 

who are you

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I will not disclose. By the way, I agree that many eastern judges are dumb, but it also applies to western judges. And the solution to more complicated argumentation is to simplify it. Dumb it down for the judges. It's called "adaptation."

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I will not disclose. By the way, I agree that many eastern judges are dumb, but it also applies to western judges. And the solution to more complicated argumentation is to simplify it. Dumb it down for the judges. It's called "adaptation."

 

Wow.

 

1) You are a coward, if you're going to attack someone let alone label an entire region, you might want to "disclose" your name.

 

and your theory that 'western debaters can't adapt'

 

1) Get your facts straight- the last two years the west has qualified one less team than the east at a tournament that is dominated by stock comm/ lay critics

 

2) As a region, 'the west' is used to a level of judging that is far above the quality you are used to, and thus you have more exposure to shitty debate. I'd like to see any 'eastern idaho' teams debate any decent 'western idaho' teams in a fast/technical debate. Why do you think that the East embarrasses Idaho on a national scale.

 

3) 'Your Judges' ruin debate- Stock Comm/Lay critics tend to limit/constrict that artistic/aesthetic expression that debate provides- ie. If you play music, I'll drop you, OR, (IF YOUR LUCKY ENOUGH TO HAVE A JUDGE THAT FLOWS) If you read a kritik I'll drop my pen, OR, If you read too fast I'll probably fall asleep.

 

I'm done.

 

 

2)

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I hope TONY, that you realize that Eastern Idaho teams did better than any western team at nationals last year in Philly. If nat. quals. is dominated by stock/comm judges, and it has for the last few years, you should have learned how to qualify by now. The quality of judging is arbitrary, b/c both sides are judged by both sides at nat. quals. If you want artistic expression, be a musician/dancer/drama student and get the heck out of policy.

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it's one thing to lose rounds because you can't communicate effectively, it's another to lose rounds because your argumentation is too difficult for some to understand.
adaptation is one thing, losing rounds because a judge refuses to listen to an argument (without letting you know prior to the round) or doesn't agree with an argument (who hasn't seen the "i don't know - you might've won the argument but i really don't agree with it") isn't due to a lack of adaptation, it's due to a judge perverting debate.
I hope TONY, that you realize that Eastern Idaho teams did better than any western team at nationals last year in Philly.
i hate it when people capitalize people's names in their entirety. it makes them sound like a five year old.

anyway, tell that to the toc (results from whitman, auburn, stanford, berkeley, etc). and, please note, that not only have these western teams that can't adopt been winning state the past couple of years (where they are judged by "b team" judges), but the kids from the west who qualify to nationals are usually first or second year debaters, a school's b or c team. it's kind of odd that that a team that isn't considered to be the best amongst their peers and haven't had all that much experience debating end up getting to nationals. and, in this year's case, it's also odd (and no offense to anyone) that boise, a team that hasn't really been all that successful this year, managed to come out of nowhere and qualify two teams.

 

i don't know, maybe it's just every other tournament that suffers from poor judging.

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I totally agree with that one-- I'm one of the members of the team from Skyline who qualed and we hit a K when we were aff every round (And no... we did not run our charge Iran case.... we wrote that only for Alta... and no... we didn't run Derrida... that was also only for Alta.) We also ran Ks... but not in front of com judges... because as much fun as Ks are... it's not intelligent to run them in front of a judge that says they hate them- I know you all won't agree with the fact that you should adapt to com judges because you aren't all from East Idaho like I am--- but I think you should be able to answer args and debate both styles...

 

I don't like com judges because I think debate is a lot more fun when it's more intense and fast paced- much like the round we had against the Centennial team at Alta- I like the kind of debate- but I believe you need to be able to do both in order to win when you aren't in Utah and have to deal with these type of judges at important tournaments.

 

Catch Ya Later-

Christa N.

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Adaptation has never been the reason that western teams have not qualified to nationals. Take Sam and Ritchie from Capital last year for example. They were arguably the best team in the state, won three TOC bids, did exceptionally well at every tournament they went to (with the exception of Nat. Quals. and State. So lets evaluate this... How is it that the best team in the state, and one of the top teams in the entire PNW can drop in the first 2 rounds of Nat. Quals? (Yes I realize they were not debating together, but that is insignificant since both their partners were good) And how is it that they didn't make it to finals at State? 1) They had a reputation as a western team that went fast. 2) Their arguments were often to complex for a lay judge to understand, even though every other debater in the room knew what was going on. I happen to know that they adapted at both of these tournaments, and happen to be two of the best speakers to come out of the state, so adaptation clearly has no bearing at State or Nat. Quals.

 

Western teams specifically do not need to learn how to adapt, because we all know how. We don't lose rounds with communications judges because we don't adapt (unless we truly don't give a fuck and completely ignore their paradigm). So un-named commentator, you should probably rethink your position on western teams. I also encourage you to read Yusuf's response carefully, especially the part about western teams winning state the last couple of years, and the year they didn't, Connor won, and if you ever debated Connor, he debated like he was from the west.

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I disagree with the statement that critical and performance debate should be excluded. I am one of the Madison kids who qualified and I am awful with the K (as Moses and Lord can atest to). But given this, I still think critical debate serves the same function as "traditional" debate; we debate for fun and education. Simply because someone dislikes it does not mean it should be thrown out. Just as some of us are strictly "traditional" debaters others should be allowed to debate critical.

 

Concerning adaptation, I have nothing but the upmost respect towards "western" debaters and faster/critical debate. They are awesome and unfortunately get shafted by a lot of our judges from the east. The problem is that we have no other option but to bring lay/comm type of judges. First, quite a few eastern schools do not have the money to hire judges from the west. It costs us an arm and a leg just to get over to Boise and stay for a couple of nights. Second, our pool of experienced judges is quite shallow. My school, for example, has no graduated policy debaters in the area to call up and even then they would simply be comms. Thankfully, a few schools do have some judges who are experienced and judge for us. For example, Skyline's assistant coach, Eric Strayer was a college debater and has already done quite a bit to bring our area up to speed. Judges like him, however, are few and far between and the rest of us have to rely on moms and communications majors in college to judge for us. Thus the only way to help "clear up" the judging pool when we compete with the west is for us from the east to not show up.

 

The above post is true. I debated Paul and Allen twice at state last year and they destroyed my partner and I even with a slew of eastern judges. Clearly, they "adapted" just fine.

 

I am not sure if there is a solution to this east-west situation. Maybe the proposed "divide Idaho into two districts" idea might work to ease tensions but that would only further entrench our side into more the lay/comms style of debate.

 

I mean to offend no one but I simply feel the need to articulate our situation on the east.

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First of all i would like to point out that with the exception of the people who refuse to name themselves this conversation has been very constructive and friendly. I commend this.

 

Now to point out a few generalizations that are probably counterproductive:

 

1. All eastern idaho debaters do not debate slowly and shitty. Conor Walline/Drew Thomas, from what i've heard the skyline kids, Johnny and Nichelle a few years back, and to an extent the old IF squad if anyone remembers back (definitely kirk but i'm more thinking of nick and chris) all disprove this. No doubt that there are a fuckton of shitty eastern idaho debaters but as i get older i've convinced myself that it is a product of environment and coercion than choice. Maybe i'm just being idealistic but i do hope this is the case.

 

2. All western idaho debaters are not critical. In fact, the past few years the teams that have been receiving bids (capital sam/richie, myself/allen, and the capital girls this year) have run more straight up cp/da arguments. Not to say this style of argumentation is preferable over another but generalizing the west as critical is an overgeneralization that just simply isn't true.

 

I'm sorry for all the eastern kids who are forced to debate in such a shitty region and choose not too. I hope your experience in boise was a step up from what you're used to. I do know allen picked up a pokey team who knew how to debate.

 

To those of you trashing the west for our lack of adaptation or whatnot i think everything that needs to be said has been. Clearly you're nothing more than a fucking assclown and are only entrenching the bias that many eastern judges have against the tree-hugging, anti-american, war-hating, faggot-loving, liberal "k" debaters from the west. I'm sorry we prefer to speak at a clear rate that can keep up with our thinking.

 

Congrats again to boise, boise, skyline, and madison for qualifiying.

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Kuna results for anyone interested:

 

1.Eagle MO

2.Centenial WF/FW

3.Centenial Issac and his partner.

 

 

yeah jimmy and fedrizzi(sp?) were legandary at that tourny.

 

immortal technique....wow

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Skyline, Madison, Boise Moses and Lord, and Boise Hannah and Stephen are qualled. Eagle TZ is the alternative. Good Job everybody, especially for debating the extraordinary amount of rounds at such a late hour.

 

Ohh that's so sad! Y'all are amazing debaters but here's what I don't understand. When we left there was 4 teams still in and y'all were one of them. So how did you end up alts?

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I think that Eastern ID, and Western ID, need to debate eachother. It teaches western to at least partly adapt to com judges, and it teaches the Eastern kids to at least start using speed and running the K.

 

I am a sophmore and after seeing Janyk and June debate i completely fell "in love" w/ the k debate. Its amazing. I just wish in eastern idaho we could start moving in that direction with the rest of the country. At least we could start to be able to compete w/ boise and maybe get a bid or 2.

 

Peace Out.

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Ohh that's so sad! Y'all are amazing debaters but here's what I don't understand. When we left there was 4 teams still in and y'all were one of them. So how did you end up alts?

 

There was one team with one more win than everybody else (think it was skyline), so they qualled. Then there were 4 teams that had tied with the same record, so there were two rounds. The winners qualled, so then there was 1 slot and two teams left. We dropped in the last round to Boise.

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Hey, all I'm saying is that if you want to win, you need to play to the judge. FYI, I HATE comms judges as well. I don't really like kritikal debate, but then again I'm terrible at it and it's just my opinion. I never said it and performance should be excluded, I just don't like them. I'm fine with western judges and some eastern judges, and with the rest, I just try to adapt.

Furthermore, I never said every team in the west was critical, I just said it's more typical in the west than the east, and I agree that that is due to environment, teaching, and the judging pool. In fact, I believe that I could learn a lot from western debaters that you don't learn in the east, but I also believe the opposite is true (and I know that will cause a few posts :]) I am not entrenched in the stereotype between east/west.

And thank you yusuf and Cobra, I stand corrected about State. I hope to see all of you there so we can debate each other. And Horatio, honestly explain why western debaters don't win if they know everything. I dare you...

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I know that Skyline went 6-1, Madison went 7-1, and one Boise team went 7-1 and the other went 7-2. I also found out that Skyline was Madison's loss, The 7-1 Boise team lost to the Madison team, and the Skyline team lost to the 7-1 Boise team. Anyone correct me if I'm wrong.

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Ok, dumbfuck, I thought my last post was pretty clear, and for me, rather polite. Apparantly you missed the part where Paul and I won state last year. The year before that we took 3rd. The year before that, my brother and I took 8th. I've won, or been in outrounds at almost all of the eastern Idaho tournaments, and I've also been first speaker at most. So, what does this mean? I know what the fuck I'm talking about. Go read my post again, or better, I'll repeat myself for your benefit.

 

1) Western teams who are accomplished have reputations as western teams. What this means is, we are known to be fast, critical, rude, flow on lap tops, run counterplans, run topicality, and otherwise, break all of the traditional rules of debate. This typically means that even if we adapt and outspeak the other team, we still stand a good chance of losing the round. Believe me, it happens.

 

2) We enjoy educational debate, and as a result we like to run challenging positions and engage in complex argumentation, sometimes challenging how and why we debate. This too often results in a loss for above mentioned reasons.

 

That is why western teams often lose in the east, although I could continue to list reasons for you. The fact that you won't even disclose who you are tells us that you are either a) A coward B) From a school that doesn't allow its debaters to get on cross-x c) a bad debater who doesn't want to lose any online credibility or a combination. Oh, and by the way, you will not see Paul, Yusuf, or myself at state. We're all graduated, but if you knew shit about the debate community, you would have known that.

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