Introducing the Open Sourcing Debate Camp Collaborative Project

[nathan_debate]

I think this has been done in the past, but I thought we should start it here anyway.

If you are going to a camp, are at a camp, or have viewed camp videos online I think we should aggregate those notes.

I think it could start here with a sticky, but I think progressing to a wiki and Scribd format would be best.

Is anyone in?

Any suggestions on format?

Anyone want to organize this further? (ie be in charge of wiki edits or uploading)

I just launched a wiki (it doesnt have any content yet)
http://debatecampnotes.wikispaces.com/

[xtncshnoutways]

a bunch of lectures have been placed on planet debate. most of them are for free.

http://www.planetdebate.com/media

[jmiller]

you can also find stuff on Emory's official lecture site - endi.gaforensics.org

[ninja]

I think this is a good idea, despite the amazing resources compiled at planet debate. I'm pretty sure not all camps have decided to host their files and lectures on Planet Debate, and personally, I don't like the haphazard organization of camp files there anyway. It might be better to have a searchable database of all free camp files, sorted by argument as well as camp that produced them, instead of mingling them in with all the lectures and files for sale.

[xtncshnoutways]

Originally Posted by ninja

I think this is a good idea, despite the amazing resources compiled at planet debate. I'm pretty sure not all camps have decided to host their files and lectures on Planet Debate, and personally, I don't like the haphazard organization of camp files there anyway. It might be better to have a searchable database of all free camp files, sorted by argument as well as camp that produced them, instead of mingling them in with all the lectures and files for sale.

this may be true, about the files being haphazardly intermingled with files for sale, but the ndca will most likely upload all the files also. the problem is having a camp files thread takes significant work. in past years, it has been started a month or so ahead of time.

[jmiller]

bluetub is willing to make this happen. email camp files to brandon@bluetubd.com and we'll make this happen

[nathan_debate]

The open ev. project already does the files.

This is about open sourcing and aggregation of debate camp notes.

This **could** also be about the videos--but that could be relavatively easily in a forum post.

PS: I'm hoping to find notes from the Michigan teaching lectures especially....because this could help make debate team management and organization easier for teachers. It would also help make debates + debaters better becauses novices + JV kids will get a better education.

[Antonucci23]

Have you considered approaching the NDCA about this and doing it under their auspices?

It seems consistent with the non-commercial ethos of this sort of project to work with a non-profit organization. Also, less cheesy.

[nathan_debate]

Thanks.

Agreed.

[Ankur]

I support the idea in principle... but be careful you arent running afoul of intellectual property laws.

[nathan_debate]

I'm not sure how that would be possible.

I don't see how speeches at debate camp that are

1) notes (so not an exact replica)
2) for educational use
3) not under copyright could have this problem at all.

Its like saying posting a flow online risks copyright violation. Thats the same argument with notes.

(thats not to say that debaters should endulge in real copyright violations...so you are right to be concerned)

[Ankur]

Originally Posted by nathan_debate

I'm not sure how that would be possible.

I don't see how speeches at debate camp that are

1) notes (so not an exact replica)
2) for educational use
3) not under copyright could have this problem at all.

Its like saying posting a flow online risks copyright violation. Thats the same argument with notes.

(thats not to say that debaters should endulge in real copyright violations...so you are right to be concerned)

When a professor gives a lecture at school, technically students are not allowed to take notes of the lecture, reproduce them and sell them. That is a technical violation of the professor's intellectual property. I am not saying that you are profiting by this, only that depending on how you pay for the server (ads?), it can be construed as such.

A flow is not a fair example because the persons giving the speeches are not paid by the tournament to be there and share their intellectual property.

At school, our professors are videotaped by our IT department so that we students can rewatch lectures later. However, speakers brought into lecture us from outside the school cannot be videotaped. The lectures are also on a non-transferable format so only students can log in and watch the lecture and we cant just download the lecture to an ipod, for example. So its also an issue of distribution.

Camps hire specific instructors because they believe those instructors give their camps a draw. If the material of the lecturers are public domain, then there is no reason that anyone needs to go to the camp. Its why MIT can have Open Courseware project and not run afoul of their professors' intellectual property - handouts and whatnot can be public domain, notes and transcriptions of lectures are not.


Again, I like the idea, I just dont know how it plays. I am not a lawyer and dont want some good ideas to get shafted because of a technicality along the way....

[nathan_debate]

From my 5 minutes of internet research, I conclude the wealth of case (aka one case) is on my side:

This Ars Technica article references what I assume is the current precedent in case law regarding this (aka the Florida case)
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/n...ture-notes.ars

This wired article doesn't come down on either side--although discusses that even if its a VIOLATION...it could still be a protected violation.
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/200...rof-sues-note/

The other part of these cases...even if the plantiff wins....i think the example of debate camp notes is not a for-profit venture.

Also, the precedent that saying "you can post your notes online" is a terrible chill on free speech. I'm pretty sure that the ACLU and almost every education advocacy group ever would take the side of free speech.

[Ankur]

I am just expressing concern so the project goes smoothly.
Like I said, I like the idea....

[nathan_debate]

Ankur,

Agreed about the concern.

Here is the final qualified article on the topic--although I haven't done any law review work.
http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2008/09/19/knetwit

I think posting tests is a violation of IP (although generally the IP of a publisher and not so much a professor).

What do other folks think about the idea? About the copywrite contraversy over this note taking service? (actually, this inside higher ed article refers to a social network)

Finally, i think that re-mixing online is the norm. My guess is the case law in that area is murky. I know Lawrence Lessig supports loser guidelines in the interest of creativity (and commerce). He has a great TED talk on the issue.

[debater08]

i think this is a great idea... gives me good ideas to use on my own debate kids who are not going to camp...

[Antonucci23]

Instead of speculating on IP law - ask the camps? Any camp would say yes unless they're terrible - it's the same principle as non-disclosure, which just brands you as a coward.

[Ankur]

Originally Posted by Antonucci23

Instead of speculating on IP law - ask the camps? Any camp would say yes unless they're terrible - it's the same principle as non-disclosure, which just brands you as a coward.

I dont know if its cowardly. That statement is incredibly coercive. I think camps have a legitimate reason to not want transcripts of their lectures (shorthand or complete) to be distributed widely. Evidence is not a work product of the camp - its a work product of the students, therefore, the camp doesnt suffer monetarily or otherwise if evidence is distributed. However, if a transcript of your lecture is widely available int he public domain, why does anyone need to go to Georgetown to learn from you? Your ideas and knowledge is already poured out into text.

I agree in principle with the idea of disclosure, but calling it cowardly is probably not the best choice of words...

[Antonucci23]

Originally Posted by Ankur

I dont know if its cowardly. That statement is incredibly coercive. I think camps have a legitimate reason to not want transcripts of their lectures (shorthand or complete) to be distributed widely. Evidence is not a work product of the camp - its a work product of the students, therefore, the camp doesnt suffer monetarily or otherwise if evidence is distributed. However, if a transcript of your lecture is widely available int he public domain, why does anyone need to go to Georgetown to learn from you? Your ideas and knowledge is already poured out into text.

I agree in principle with the idea of disclosure, but calling it cowardly is probably not the best choice of words...

I think that anyone who believes that the value of a workshop comes from the secret magic wordspell of a lecture alone doesn't have a very good workshop.

That said, "cowardly" is hyperbole. I probably wasn't careful enough with a rhetorical flourish. How about "silly"? Can I say "silly"?

[jmiller]

Check out our camp evidence site

and

Our Lectures Site

What makes this unique: We have taken the original location of most (if not all) files - and directly linked you to them. Now you don't have to sift through all of the files to try and find what you're looking for.

We’d like to thank the following institutes for publishing these lectures and evidence: Cal National Debate Institute, Dartmouth Debate Workshop, Emory National Debate Institute, Georgetown Debate Seminar, Gonzaga Debate Institute, Kentucky National Debate Institute, Michigan National Debate Institutes and University of North Texas Mean Green Workshops.

Also, planet debate has some good stuff.

[Snarf]

Originally Posted by jmiller

Check out our camp evidence site

and

Our Lectures Site

What makes this unique: We have taken the original location of most (if not all) files - and directly linked you to them. Now you don't have to sift through all of the files to try and find what you're looking for.

We’d like to thank the following institutes for publishing these lectures and evidence: Cal National Debate Institute, Dartmouth Debate Workshop, Emory National Debate Institute, Georgetown Debate Seminar, Gonzaga Debate Institute, Kentucky National Debate Institute, Michigan National Debate Institutes and University of North Texas Mean Green Workshops.

<3

Can you differentiate what's updated when please? Different color or something?

[jmiller]

Originally Posted by Wise, Talking Trash Heap

<3

Can you differentiate what's updated when please? Different color or something?

Yeah - at the top of each page I'll make a notice of when it was last updated - don't expect this though until later tonight.

[nathan_debate]

I've aggregated all the GA Forensics links and some of the planet debate links here "Debate Camp Lectures and Files from High School Policy Topic." I hope its helpful to students trying to research or debate the 2009 - 2010 high school debate topic.